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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#171

Post by richardjordan »

coldtea wrote: post #167
tptacek wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense, if the "traditional value" is that women should be in the house cooking lest they subject themselves to groping and leering. Common sense.

Only billions of other people have a different a kind of "common sense" where "women in the kitchen" is considered perfectly natural for them. What makes yours better? That it's you (your culture that is) that has it? Which brings us to a bigger question: should different cultures with different values on such issues exist in parallel? E.g I for one take offense ("common sense" to me) with any culture that is so back…

You need to go back and edit your comment. You mistakenly said billions of people.

You clearly meant billions of men. The idea that the women of the world are crying out to be restricted from opportunity, to be rendered a second class status in society, and that it should all be enforced by cultural or religious traditions and authorities through the implied threat of violence, or often actual violence... yeah that's nonsense.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#172

Post by richardjordan »

grannyg00se wrote: post #27

Why don't we hear this more often? I often hear stores about people traveling to India but I've never heard of this level of incessant public abuse. And what about the people who were warning her to dress conservatively and not make eye contact? Did they know the extent of the abuse she was about to endure? Did they deliberately downplay it for some reason? Or did she experience unusually horrific treatment because o…

Genuine question - are you talking to male friends or female friends, and did the women spend much time alone?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#173

Post by richardjordan »

imperio59 wrote: post #151

It's a bit hypocritical to point at another country and say how bad it is over there, when the typical teenage boy in America watches his first porno clip at around 10 or 11 years old. Granted we do not necessarily have as much of the kind of behavior the girl describes out in the open but it does exist behind closed doors, at frat parties, at high school parties, at office parties... It's even worse in the fact that…

underage porn viewing is hardly the same as widespread acceptance of rape and sexual abuse

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#174

Post by [deleted] »

sridharvembu wrote: post #76

As an Indian, this makes me really really ashamed and sad and angry. I would apologize to her as an Indian. To understand what is going on in Indian society, I recommend this book by Naipaul, written over 20 years ago, but still very relevant: "India, a million mutinies now" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55676.India Basically India is in an utterly chaotic transition from an old established hierarchy where your…

[deleted]

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#175

Post by saraid216 »

chrischen wrote: post #152
moultano wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you talked to the women? My wife is Indian as are many of our friends. The men all think wistfully about moving back to India. None of the women do. People are skeptical of "American Culture" in large part because even after living here for years, they view it through the lens of how it was portrayed in Indian cinema. Regardless, the women all appreciate that in America they can safely go about their business in…

That's not culture so much as it is the side effect of culture merged with their current development state as a country. That is, if India's quality of living and development were advanced to that of the west, there probably wouldn't be anything objectively inferior culture-wise.

How do you distinguish between culture and its side effects?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#176

Post by waveman2 »

richardjordan wrote: post #171
coldtea wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only billions of other people have a different a kind of "common sense" where "women in the kitchen" is considered perfectly natural for them. What makes yours better? That it's you (your culture that is) that has it? Which brings us to a bigger question: should different cultures with different values on such issues exist in parallel? E.g I for one take offense ("common sense" to me) with any culture that is so back…

You need to go back and edit your comment. You mistakenly said billions of people. You clearly meant billions of men. The idea that the women of the world are crying out to be restricted from opportunity, to be rendered a second class status in society, and that it should all be enforced by cultural or religious traditions and authorities through the implied threat of violence, or often actual violence... yeah that's…

> You clearly meant billions of men.

Plenty of women believe this too.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#177

Post by homosaur »

coldtea wrote: post #167
tptacek wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense, if the "traditional value" is that women should be in the house cooking lest they subject themselves to groping and leering. Common sense.

Only billions of other people have a different a kind of "common sense" where "women in the kitchen" is considered perfectly natural for them. What makes yours better? That it's you (your culture that is) that has it? Which brings us to a bigger question: should different cultures with different values on such issues exist in parallel? E.g I for one take offense ("common sense" to me) with any culture that is so back…

Well most of those cultures you just said are not objectively worse also have the death penalty, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. This sort of moral relativism is not really helpful to anyone or any society. Enforced gender roles are morally objectionable because they are not compatible with justice, period.

There's a difference between saying a culture is bad because they eat an animal you think it's wrong to eat and that they mistreat an entire sex and if you don't see that, you need to work on your moral system some more.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#178

Post by waveman2 »

sid6376 wrote: post #40
Tichy wrote: post #30

What I don't understand is why anybody would think of India as a traveler's paradise? Because everything is cheap for a western person? Does one need a huge amount of ignorance to enjoy traveling among hordes of poor people? (Real question - I've never done such a thing)

Let me take a shot at answering this. 1. India has a lot of beautiful and varied landscapes. There are mountains, lakes, forests , beautiful beaches , backwaters. I cannot do justice to the amazing places I have seen. 2. Almost everyone speaks English. In some places, to make the tourists feel more comfortable people have learned Hebrew, French and German. 3. Things are indeed cheap. More controversially, I have also…

Worth mentioning also that India has one of the world's oldest and richest cultures.

It is hard to describe the feeling visiting some of these places, perhaps it's a bit like visiting Delphi or the Acropolis. My favorite was the Red Fort near the Taj Mahal.

It's a lot easier to describe the bad things about India than the good things.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#179

Post by lovemenot »

hankcharles wrote: post #117
Tsagadai wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume that you are male. I can assure you China is pretty damn dangerous for women who go drinking and rape is also common. There is a lot of sexual harassment in the workplace which is typified by power imbalances (you need a job and your boss is a sleazebag). Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it isn't there.

It certainly can be dangerous, as can any country, and I consider myself lucky to not have had any problems, but I can't think of another country I have been in that felt safer to me. And more time there only verified that feeling. There is a certainly a strong chance I would feel otherwise if I was a woman.

Have you visited Japan? It has great civility and safety, applied to people of either gender and even to foreigners. At least to white ones like me. Japanese say the old order is breaking down in the cities, so I can only imagine how it once was. Yet it remains the most civil place I have seen.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#180

Post by ankitdvl »

godzilla82 wrote: post #135
grdvnl wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your comment: Even Indians who grow up in cities get the same kind of stares when they visit villages. As an young child every year when my siblings and I visit a tiny village where my parents grew up, there are always people who live around the neighborhood peeping through our doors to see who has arrived and what we were up to. Even when we walk in the muddy roads or ride in an ox-cart to visit the farms,…

>This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). How is it good? Btw just because a lot of people practice a gross behavior doesn't make it part of the culture. I hate it when people give excuses for behavior by saying it is "cultural". By the same logic, Bride burning, dowry and female foeticide is also practiced, Do you also consider it a part of the culture?

The main problem is with the level of education and mannerism 90% of the indians posses. These people are always in fear of god and trapped by their religions. They are not enlightened enough to make all the logical decisions themselves which causes the main problem. They try to objectify anything and everything they see. It's like a hungry man stealing food from shop. Without education and knowledge every society is equal to animals.
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