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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#101

Post by hankcharles »

dhruvarora wrote: post #53
hankcharles wrote: post #11

having recently traveled in India for three weeks, I heard remarkably similar accounts all too frequently from groups of women travelers. Even as a man, I was approached for sex several times while out running. It was gross. Having traveled a fair amount, I have never personally experienced behavior consistently this revolting in other countries. The behavior of Indian men was easily the most dissappointing part of m…

This is slightly disturbing. If you're comfortable with it, could you elaborate on what happened to you? I have never heard of cases involving men.

Not at all.

Nothing terribly unusual or that I haven't encountered in the US, but the frequency with which it happened was really alarming.

Twice a guy drove up next to me on more quiet roads and starting asking questions about how to get around or something other general that I can't remember (in English, btw). I always tried to keep running and they just rode along next to me. The topic would quickly change to sex and then I would get angry and sprint back to a busy street and go away. A couple other times guys drive past me in cars and were more direct. It was never violent or particularly scary.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#102

Post by dylangs1030 »

rm999 wrote: post #66
rayiner wrote: post #12

I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing. What bugs me are…

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

>"While we may criticize Indians for being misogynistic, many Indians criticize Americans for lacking a solid foundation of traditional values. Like anything else that's subjective, we perceive culture in a relative manner."

Except misogyny is a legitimate criticism of a society, a lack of "traditional values" is not.

A lot of social issues, like legitimate discrimination of minority groups in America, are legitimate. On the other hand, there's a second class of social issues, the subjective ones. For example, the view that America is too "Puritan" in political forums. A theme like that is subjective - that would be a "traditional value."

I think 'rayiner's point can best be summed up as an answer to your last sentence. Yes, America, like India, isn't perfect. Both have unique "social issues" - but America is still, objectively, a better place to live.

Yeah, it can be argued that people in India might not glare at you the same way people in the NYC subway do, and that India has nicer scenery. These are irrelevant to a discussion of which place is actually better to live in.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#103

Post by moultano »

rm999 wrote: post #66
rayiner wrote: post #12

I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing. What bugs me are…

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

Have you talked to the women? My wife is Indian as are many of our friends. The men all think wistfully about moving back to India. None of the women do.

People are skeptical of "American Culture" in large part because even after living here for years, they view it through the lens of how it was portrayed in Indian cinema. Regardless, the women all appreciate that in America they can safely go about their business in public, and in India they can't.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#104

Post by lmartel »

rm999 wrote: post #66
rayiner wrote: post #12

I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing. What bugs me are…

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

I feel like this is a cop-out. Indian culture is objectively worse than American culture, and this article is pretty solid evidence of this.

"Traditional values" are no excuse for misogyny and barbarism. Tradition is close to the literal opposite of social progress and I don't understand why it is glorified. I'm pretty proud that I have no "solid foundation of traditional values," and that I've incidentally raped a grand total of 0 people.

Edit: I read your clarifying comments on the other sub-threads. What's the difference in this context between a social issue and a cultural one?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#105

Post by brazzy »

tootie wrote: post #87
rm999 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

It's not ethnocentrism, it's real. Even from wealthy countries in East Asia where the strict Confucian relationships put huge burdens on women. Obviously, a lot if not most people are inured to those cultures and don't like the Euro/American level of cultural freedom. The ones who moved are the ones who couldn't deal with the oppression.

> Obviously, a lot if not most people are inured to those cultures and don't like the Euro/American level of cultural freedom.

Nope, still ethnocentrism.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#106

Post by kenster07 »

lmartel wrote: post #104
rm999 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

I feel like this is a cop-out. Indian culture is objectively worse than American culture, and this article is pretty solid evidence of this. "Traditional values" are no excuse for misogyny and barbarism. Tradition is close to the literal opposite of social progress and I don't understand why it is glorified. I'm pretty proud that I have no "solid foundation of traditional values," and that I've incidentally raped a g…

Though I am disgusted by the descriptions in the article, I find your comment equally offensive.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#107

Post by walid »

Sven7 wrote: post #67
sid6376 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this culture of misogyny and treating women as sexual objects in almost all places in India I have lived in. Not trying to counter your point, just saying that this observation could have been written by a woman who spent her time in Kolkata/Chennai/Bangalore/Mumbai rather than in Pune. In fact Pune in some respects is much better than some of the cities I mentioned above.

I agree. But just a word of caution, if we are talking about misogyny and treating women as sexual objects, lets also talk about the porn industry(which today is as responsible for the existence of the internet, as advertising is for Google). Is there a difference when the developed world spends countless hours objectifying women from the safety of their homes through technology?

The problem in practical terms is a semi-slavery view of women in public. Men and women in porn movies are objectified but not coerced into it, whereas assault is coercion.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#108

Post by Tsagadai »

hankcharles wrote: post #33
solistice wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you on China. I've had encounters which were completely harmless there, but could have taken a sour turn in Germany. Even the homeless are remarkably civil. There are certain areas you should stay out of as a tourist, but everywhere else seems almost laughably safe.

It is really amazing. Collectively, I have spent over two years in China, and have never been particularly cautious about what sort of situations I work my way into. Never once have I felt threatened or unsafe. It is what I admire most about the country.

I'm going to assume that you are male. I can assure you China is pretty damn dangerous for women who go drinking and rape is also common. There is a lot of sexual harassment in the workplace which is typified by power imbalances (you need a job and your boss is a sleazebag). Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#109

Post by dman »

sridharvembu wrote: post #76

As an Indian, this makes me really really ashamed and sad and angry. I would apologize to her as an Indian. To understand what is going on in Indian society, I recommend this book by Naipaul, written over 20 years ago, but still very relevant: "India, a million mutinies now" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55676.India Basically India is in an utterly chaotic transition from an old established hierarchy where your…

Pretty spot on from my perspective.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#110

Post by autodidakto »

Tichy wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either ignorance, or a healthy dose of youthful, idealistic liberalism.

What does liberalism mean in that context - the belief that everybody is only responsible for themselves? (Again serious question, I don't know how to interpret this).

In this context, I believe he's using liberalism to mean 'idealism', 'progressive views', optimism and faith in humanity and human progress.
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