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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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11–20 of 201 posts

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#11
having recently traveled in India for three weeks, I heard remarkably similar accounts all too frequently from groups of women travelers.

Even as a man, I was approached for sex several times while out running. It was gross.

Having traveled a fair amount, I have never personally experienced behavior consistently this revolting in other countries. The behavior of Indian men was easily the most dissappointing part of my time there.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#12
I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing.

What bugs me are people, largely motivated by financial interests, in my opinion, who downplay the massive cultural and social advantages we still enjoy in the west over places like India. We may be dealing with demographic challenges and sometimes sclerotic economics, but I'd take France in decline over any BRIC country on a supposed upswing any day of the week... But the almighty dollar is the most important thing, right? As long as there is money in doing business in India (or the Middle East), we can just chalk all this up to "cultural differences" that we must be "accommodating" of.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#13
Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all):

I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doing nothing but stare.

It was unnerving, naturally, and I asked my brother and his (now) wife about it, since they had been living there for about a year. They told me, and I later observed for myself, that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are. It's very honest, very unapologetic, and once you get over the taboo of the stare, very disarming. It's not just visiting Westerners either - they stare at each other, watch each other honestly, will walk across the street to get a better look, and crowd around something interesting. I saw it constantly and eventually understood it as a lack of interpersonal barriers that arise in a highly individualistic society. Everything is shared because in a city of 15-20 million people, there's hardly any space apart. People in major metro areas understand some aspect of this but it's hard to really grasp unless you're there.

The problem, of course, arises when this lack of barriers combines with misogyny of the boldest type. Getting used to the constant stares is one thing for me, a man (and taller than most of my observers by a head), but for a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density, but the lack of respect for her body and humanity is not. It is rank and deep-seated sexism, and insitutionalized assault. There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#14
post #10

The problem I think is - The people at lowest rung of our society have very little moral values. The most important thing is to survive. Sure occasionally you meet a auto-rickshaw driver who did not try to charge you more, but by and large every one of them will try to take as much as they can. I have been with some of the poor people (heck I come from poor background) of this country, took a trip in transport truck…

I don't understand your logic, or what democracy has to do with the matter.

I am no expert on India, but I spent enough time there to observe a clear and disturbing trend in male behavior and I have spent enough time in other - developed and developing - countries to have appropriate context for comparison.

An easy place to start would be China, which exhibits some similar demographic issues, but you really never come across this type of behavior there.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#15
post #4

It is stomach-churning, terrifying, and maddening to read this ...

Very much so... I don't think I can describe in words just how horrifying it was to read this. This is a country that my ancestors were from. It's hard to imagine it being so patriarchal and sexist as is described here. But, as we see from the news, it is. It's hell. And it's not going to change.

The "patriarchal and sexist" adjectives are presumably necessary but not in and of themselves sufficient. For instance, there have been plenty of sexist, patriarchal regimes in European history where behaviors such as the ones described would be considered gross affronts to basic morality by the Christian church (which was an empowered entity whose opinions carried some import).

(One could theoretically hope that gender-studies departments at various universities should find it productive to scrutinize the differences in these patriarchal, sexist regimes in order to understand the nature of the cultural differences which engendered these disparate results. Theoretically.)

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#17
post #10

The problem I think is - The people at lowest rung of our society have very little moral values. The most important thing is to survive. Sure occasionally you meet a auto-rickshaw driver who did not try to charge you more, but by and large every one of them will try to take as much as they can. I have been with some of the poor people (heck I come from poor background) of this country, took a trip in transport truck…

I read a blame-Indian-poor comment like this on every HN article about India. I recall one guy upbraiding the poor for public defecation. Because of low morals. As if lack of sewage infrastructure had nothing to do with the fact that people s&*# in the street in India. It's poor morals.

What makes your comment most remarkable, however, is that the linked article says almost nothing about class, or economic development, or anything like that. It's about street harassment of women. And yet, since it's an article about India, someone chimes in with a comment about how low-morals the poor are.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#18

There is an India you don't want to know about. This is it. We, Indians, have seen it. But we choose to ignore it, because, Mera Bharat Mahan (My India is Great)

It makes me hate other Indians though. Admit there's a problem, and work to fix it. Don't just brush it to the side and pretend it's not a big deal if you ignore it. All that's doing is putting a bandage on an open sore which is going to fester and make it harder to fix down the line.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#19
post #10

The problem I think is - The people at lowest rung of our society have very little moral values. The most important thing is to survive. Sure occasionally you meet a auto-rickshaw driver who did not try to charge you more, but by and large every one of them will try to take as much as they can. I have been with some of the poor people (heck I come from poor background) of this country, took a trip in transport truck…

I don't understand your logic, or what democracy has to do with the matter. I am no expert on India, but I spent enough time there to observe a clear and disturbing trend in male behavior and I have spent enough time in other - developed and developing - countries to have appropriate context for comparison. An easy place to start would be China, which exhibits some similar demographic issues, but you really never com…

There are two problems:

1. Crime against women is specially high. Why is it high? Because - wheels of justice turn really slowly here and perpetrator has a good chance of escaping without punishment. From what I hear, Justice (or sometimes lack of it) is swift in China. That itself is a great deterrent.

2.If you go through all the recent rape cases reported in media, perpetrators are almost always - mostly uneducated and poor. For some it was just entertainment(The Delhi case) and in others just an idea that they can get away with it. There is also sad fact that for many Indian males - women are objects [of pleasure]. An stereotype often reinforced by B and C grade movies (guess who watches those movies).

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#20
I grew up in India. In one of the major metros. And deterioration over the years was all too striking. I couldn't really put down finger on what snowballed it to such a state but materialism is definitely a big part of it.

As a 10 year old, I used to walk for kilometres in ridge areas all alone. At 12-13, I have ridden bicycle to the most reclusive parts of the neighbourhood. And thought of something awful happening was in nobody's mind. Any of these activities would be unthinkable now.

More and more people have poured into the cities. With political class elected by force and threats and educated being outnumbered and helpless by democratic disguise, I don't know what can remedy the situation.

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