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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#61
post #30

What I don't understand is why anybody would think of India as a traveler's paradise? Because everything is cheap for a western person? Does one need a huge amount of ignorance to enjoy traveling among hordes of poor people? (Real question - I've never done such a thing)

I don't know why people live in that sort of denial.

To me it was obvious as soon as I got there (mumbai, then delhi, jaipur and agra) that there was grinding poverty, little modern infrastructure, little to no sanitation, mass corruption, inequality unlike anything I'd seen before, incredible overcrowding... Quite horrible.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#63
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well as an indian it saddens me to say that i agree with you. also I believe that middle class and rich are the most misogynist among indians. There is no morality that works in india accept "I can get away with this because I have money and power to do so". I think that world will face a lot of problems integrating india and indians in near future.

Are you implying education has little impact on how a person perceives the world around him/her? Can we deny that, all rapes that were reported in media were done by people from lower rung of our society? Sure for every poor criminal there is a educated bureaucrat taking bribe and doing as he pleases. But we are specifically talking about street harassment and crime against women here, which is fixable by educating p…

i am sorry but i believe you are in some fantasy world my friend. Most of the educated indians dont respect women and everyone knows how much porn addiction and objectification of women is rampant among educated students and other people. I believe that lower class of society learns from the middle and upper classes. in India the meme of rape and abuse towards women comes from idealogy of middle class and rich misogynist men. I also believe this is a result of large amount of female feoticide that happend in past 25 years and is still going on in large numbers. I see future in a pessimistic way because of all this and it saddnes me that after knowing and understanding politics and history of the country , I dont see any way out of this darkness. I live in europe now and I made many friends with people travelling in india and many women from europe just like the girl from the article. Almost every women was harrassed and abused in some point of their journey in some way by someone and this is not dependent on class. I first hand experienced middle class and rich kids from majot metropolian cities taking picture of western women in beaches of goa without their permission and harrasing them. I know the reasons for it very well one of them being not being able to see most indian women naked while growing up and being exposed to a lot of western adult content makes clear distinction in peoples mind to look and see white women as a mere sex object and nothing more. Also movie industry and what ideas they promote about women and sexuality doesnt help much. dont get me started about billion dollar fairness creams industry.........

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#64
How does one effect societal change to counter this? Poverty or the poverty gap isn't going away anytime soon in India. I don't necessarily think poverty is the problem in this case. It is an attitude that's all too pervasive among Indian men, even the well-educated ones and most have gotten away with it for decades. It will take an entire generation and perhaps more of education and cultural shift to change misogynistic attitudes and teach basic respect.

What does one do, present day, to start fixing the problem?

As a man who grew up in India but lives in the west now, I'm ashamed of this side of my home country.

The staring thing is uniquely Indian and I'd agree with devindotcom, most of the time, curiosity that is honest and harmless.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#65
This sort of thing, and much worse, happens in all countries where there is a strong ethos of sexual repression.

Let's take a glimpse at the Middle East for a moment.

Specifically Egypt.

And no this is not about the much publicized Lara Logan incident. Nor is it about several other subsequent incidents including other foreign journalists at around at the same time.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/05/egypt-women-rap...

Did you even so much as hear about the rape of a 22 year old Dutch journalist, just last month, in full public view, in the middle of Tahrir Square?

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/jour...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8

(The videos, although free of nudity, are still disturbing. Exercise caution)

How many Western news outlets covered the incident? I'd be surprised if her fellow Dutch men and women ever learnt of the incident. Such is the nature of the phenomenon of self-enforced media blackouts in Western media, circa 2013.

The big difference in India is that the press is free (probably far more free than most places in the West and represents free-market capitalism at its most sharpest best, since the sheer number of media houses in India makes silencing any news story virtually impossible), people are free to express opinions and there is plenty of it, and there is no government authority to stage manage the "image of India" as other Asian and Middle Eastern countries do. Statistically India has something like 1.8 rapes per 100,000 people while peaceful Sweden has 78. India has 1.2 billion, a size much of the world cannot comprehend. Hence a noisy press combined with a large number of cases due to huge population results in perpetuation of stereotypes about whats really one sixth of humanity.

Yes, lots of work needs to be done in the country but the selective harpooning of countries that enjoy generous press freedoms (there are easily more newspapers and news channels in India than all of the rest of the world combined, by far) just goes to show how we choose to sanitize the stories from countries we want to portray in favorable light and vilify the ones we don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_news_channels_in_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_India

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#66
post #12

I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing. What bugs me are…

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages

Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian culture. Almost none moved here for mostly cultural reasons. Cultural preference is subjective, and people tend to prefer what they know and are comfortable with.

While a Westerner may criticize Indians for lacking a sense of personal space, many Indians believe Americans are socially cold and distant to one another. While we may criticize Indians for being misogynistic (edit: wrong word, I meant something more along the lines of patriarchal), many Indians criticize Americans for lacking a solid foundation of traditional values. Like anything else that's subjective, we perceive culture in a relative manner.

Yes, India has serious issues with the way women are treated and I won't defend this, but the West has and still is going through our own social issues.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#67
post #42
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of what you say. There's just one point I want add. I have been to India and the US multiple times. If I judged the US, just based on my experiences living in downtown Detroit or Newark I would never visit the US ever again. Just thinking about the things I experienced gives me the shivers.

I have seen this culture of misogyny and treating women as sexual objects in almost all places in India I have lived in. Not trying to counter your point, just saying that this observation could have been written by a woman who spent her time in Kolkata/Chennai/Bangalore/Mumbai rather than in Pune. In fact Pune in some respects is much better than some of the cities I mentioned above.

I agree. But just a word of caution, if we are talking about misogyny and treating women as sexual objects, lets also talk about the porn industry(which today is as responsible for the existence of the internet, as advertising is for Google).

Is there a difference when the developed world spends countless hours objectifying women from the safety of their homes through technology?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#68

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doin…

All the upvotes in the world for this: >There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.

Perhaps we should add a few more countries while we are at this game.

I'll bite first.

Egypt.

DISTURBING CONTENT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/jour...

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#69
post #66
post #12

I feel bad for what happened to this poor woman, but it just goes to show you the disconnect between academic romanticization ("South Asian Studies" major at U. Chicago) and the cold hard light of reality. And that reality is that people flee these countries for a reason. People don't just decide to uproot their families and leave everything they know 10,000 miles in the rear view mirror for nothing. What bugs me are…

>people flee these countries for a reason ... massive cultural and social advantages Woah, there's some serious ethnocentrism in your comment. I know 100s of people who have moved to the USA from India, including my parents, a lot of their friends, and a large number of friends and colleagues. These people tend to be very progressive for India and still very few think Western culture is objectively better than Indian…

Let me offer an anecdote too. I am of Indian origin. I lived in the country for 7 years; I speak multiple Indian languages quite well too. I was there recently. There are several distinctions between the two countries.

1. Things get more real there. You don't get good grades, your life is going to suck with high probability. In America, you can wank off trying to navel gaze whilst doing your degree in some bullshit and then eventually can be comfortable living your life working in a coffee shop. In India, the people who work at coffeeshops have shitty lives.

2. I agree on your perception of Indians vs. Americans on interpersonal relations. Indians have no concept of personal space. I was traveling alone in the Himalayas. I got tired of the questions that started off with casual strangers asking me "Do you have no friends?" to army men asking me suspiciously why I was traveling alone. (To add on to the shit is more real there; if I had a name of the wrong religion, that would have been a dangerous issue.) In America, people create these shells of beautiful people. Everyone is happy, white shining teeth and shining gadgets. Depression and mental issues covered up. Take a pill; go to the therapist is the solution to everything here.

3. People in the U.S. have a sense of community. A simple fucking thing like littering is a big deal. In India, forget about the fact that the government mandated litter bins exist all over the place, no one wants to take the effort to put a piece of plastic in the damn bin. Again, with high probability.

Finally, to get to the subject of the OP. I met a lot of American girls (and guys) whilst traveling there. I was shocked that fucking Delhi, the capital of one of the largest countries in the world, was where most of them reported being harassed. From the innocuous "Are your freckles a sign of skin cancer" to "Hey, you are white, would you like to get raped.". This behavior is revulsive. Yes, it should be brought up to light.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#70

having recently traveled in India for three weeks, I heard remarkably similar accounts all too frequently from groups of women travelers. Even as a man, I was approached for sex several times while out running. It was gross. Having traveled a fair amount, I have never personally experienced behavior consistently this revolting in other countries. The behavior of Indian men was easily the most dissappointing part of m…

This is slightly disturbing. If you're comfortable with it, could you elaborate on what happened to you? I have never heard of cases involving men.

Indian gay men will often ask foreigners for sex - it happened to me a number of times. I wasn't particularly disturbed when it happened, but I was curious why it happened so much to me.

I asked a couple of the guys who approached me and I got two answers. One is that I'm about a foot taller and more muscular than the vast majority of indian men, i.e. I'm pretty hot. The other is that if they approach an Indian, he might know people in their community which would result in their family finding out they are gay.

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