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On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

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Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#41

Post by rubinelli »

sz4kerto wrote: post #8
rubinelli wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a micro scale, your job clearly isn't worthless. A large tech company needs patent lawyers, or it will be completely destroyed by its competitors. But what if all patent lawyers suddenly resigned and started their rock bands, or became carpenters? So, "bullshit jobs" are essentially jobs where you are playing a zero-sum game. Like SEO: your site goes up, another site goes down by the same amount. And you have to k…

The world is not going to drift towards the global optima. Nash wins, idealists lose. Sad, but inevitable. :)

That's why we need "pragmatic" idealists. People that realize that trying to make people go against their immediate self-interest in the game just won't work, but that the game itself can be changed to push the Nash Equilibrium up.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#42

Post by [deleted] »

RyanZAG wrote: post #33
vanderZwan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. I think the implication is that that is largely a form of Stockholm syndrome. > They'll probably go as far as to sabotage genuine useful production in an effort to prove their value. How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there?

" How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there? " I was not arguing against the idea of bullshit jobs. It's not even possible to argue against that! I was arguing against the reason for having bullshit jobs. He attributes this to some plan by 'the man' to put people in these jobs. I'm arguing it is people putting themselves in these jobs by themselves.

[deleted]

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#43

Post by roel_v »

RyanZAG wrote: post #32
impendia wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until the end. Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

That happens less in academics - I was thinking more of administrative areas in corporations. For example, there are no shortages of stories of administrators in procurement adding in additional required paperwork when more efficient computerized systems make their stamp on documents less required. Actually, this has happened in academics in a way too - consider the requirement of ever lengthening literature reviews…

" consider the requirement of ever lengthening literature reviews in PHD theses. These have come about because of the ease of access to academic documents through digitized journals making libraries and supervisors less valuable."

I'm not sure I understand your conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo correctly, but I cannot help but take from this that you are saying that because finding literature has become faster due to electronic access to papers, the added value of the Phd supervisor has gone down. If this is so, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, a position for which I find additional evidence in your use of 'PHD' with all capitals which nobody in academia would do. Look, if you have something valuable to add to the discussion, please do; but if you're just going to make things up to fit your ideological predispositions, stay on Reddit.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#44

Post by impendia »

olefoo wrote: post #35
impendia wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until the end. Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

Derrida. And I'm only sort of being facetious. Sometime in the 1980's the humanities seemed to collectively decide that 'theory' was more important than the ability to think and communicate clearly. To my mind this has always been the point at which Academia as a class abdicated it's responsibilities to society at large in favor of internal power games and obscurantism.

Ah, but this trend was fought by another academic. Alan Sokal, NYU physicist, famously completely bullshitted an essay and got it published by Social Text, a leading postmodern sociology journal.

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/

Scroll down to "Transgressing the Boundaries".

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#45

Post by Spooky23 »

RyanZAG wrote: post #32
impendia wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until the end. Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

That happens less in academics - I was thinking more of administrative areas in corporations. For example, there are no shortages of stories of administrators in procurement adding in additional required paperwork when more efficient computerized systems make their stamp on documents less required. Actually, this has happened in academics in a way too - consider the requirement of ever lengthening literature reviews…

I worked at a government agency that circa 2005 was using paper timesheets. The timesheets were required to be printed on a specific shade of blue paper.

Hilarity ensued when some admin ordered "air force blue" paper instead of "power blue". The HR director decreed that only "power blue" would be accepted, and all other hues would be rejected. They probably spent 200 hours debating it.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#46

Post by singingfish »

impendia wrote: post #22
RyanZAG wrote: post #20

I was with him all the way until "The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger ". The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. The 'ruling class' really doesn't care if anybody is or isn't working pointless jobs. Society as a whole is forcing people into pointless jobs by viewing anybody…

I was with you until the end. Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

One peer reviewed paper a year. Regardless of quality. Wittgenstein - a philosopher with a major influence on modern life after he died published two short works in a lifetime.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#47

Post by singingfish »

RyanZAG wrote: post #33
vanderZwan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. I think the implication is that that is largely a form of Stockholm syndrome. > They'll probably go as far as to sabotage genuine useful production in an effort to prove their value. How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there?

" How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there? " I was not arguing against the idea of bullshit jobs. It's not even possible to argue against that! I was arguing against the reason for having bullshit jobs. He attributes this to some plan by 'the man' to put people in these jobs. I'm arguing it is people putting themselves in these jobs by themselves.

Thus "the man" influences the people to act against their own best interest. Happens all the time.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#48

Post by vanderZwan »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #23

I wonder how much people we really need to replicate, sustain and exceed present levels of technology and culture (on another planet perhaps)? Given that we allow every person to develop their talents of contributing to the productivity of the society. Not just being a wage drone or an unemployed drone. My guess is: as few as a few million people today, hundred thousands when we figure out robotics.

I recall a reading very fascinating comment on Reddit a few years ago on this subject: if you want to maximise for maximum biological diversity at the lowest cost, the best option would be to have a small all-female crew, and as much diverse frozen sperm as possible (which is the most compact form of proto-human we got).

Then upon reaching the intended planet, fertilise every female with a unique cell. Repeat every generation until you run out of frozen sperm. Hey presto, biological diversity for cheap.

Of course, if anything this shows the problems with optimising for one variable at the expense of ignoring of all others.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#49

Post by mixmax »

RyanZAG wrote: post #26
mixmax wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good observation. I've put some effort into circumventing the zero-sum things, though I haven't thought about it this way before. I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. My living expenses come down to harbour rent, electricity and heating in the winter. Over a year that's an average of $300 a month. I live in the smack middle of Copenhagen. On top of this comes living expenses, clothes, et…

I think you're discounting that most people really don't want to live on a boat. An alternative is living in the countryside, but most people don't want to live there either. It's not just materialism or a status symbol at play here, but the preferences of the majority of society pushing people into zero-sum. If people suddenly decided that living on a boat isn't that bad (not going to happen), then the price of dock…

From anecdotal evidence I don't think you're right. Every summer I speak to an average of three strangers a week that stroll by the harbour and ask about how to get a space, how to buy a boat, and how they can go about doing it. But very few people take the plunge. When I tell people how I live most of them are envious (some think I'm crazy too).

I think what's keeping people from doing it is fear. Most people don't have the courage to break with deepheld norms such as living in a house or an apartment.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#50

Post by JonnieCache »

RyanZAG wrote: post #33
vanderZwan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. I think the implication is that that is largely a form of Stockholm syndrome. > They'll probably go as far as to sabotage genuine useful production in an effort to prove their value. How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there?

" How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there? " I was not arguing against the idea of bullshit jobs. It's not even possible to argue against that! I was arguing against the reason for having bullshit jobs. He attributes this to some plan by 'the man' to put people in these jobs. I'm arguing it is people putting themselves in these jobs by themselves.

>He attributes this to some plan by 'the man' to put people in these jobs. I'm arguing it is people putting themselves in these jobs by themselves.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. See the last line of the article:

"Clearly, the system was never consciously designed. It emerged from almost a century of trial and error."

People in power make little daily nudges, those under the yoke follow the path of least resistance, and society wanders towards an equilibrium.

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