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On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

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Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#21

Post by dageshi »

dasil003 wrote: post #6
BetaCygni wrote: post #2

Other people clearly don't think your job is worthless or they wouldn't be paying you to do it. The reason we don't work less is because we clearly want (and can have) more stuff than we had in the 1930's. If you're happy with the standard of living from 1930 you could probably achieve that with 10 hours of work per week.

> Other people clearly don't think your job is worthless or they wouldn't be paying you to do it That's true on its face, but the problem the article is trying to put its finger on is that money earned does not necessarily equate to value created. GDP grows every time money changes hands, but that is only a proxy for actual value delivered to human beings. As the economy grows more complex this proxy becomes more abs…

They're paying people to have the specific domain knowledge that can be applied quickly in emergencies.

I suppose it's a bit like being a fireman at an airport, the chances of having a plane need your services are I would've thought pretty rare, but you still need to be there and you've still got to be ready because you've got to react incredibly quickly if something goes wrong.

Can't have an airport without firemen even though an incident requiring their services may never happen, I guess companies feel the same way about corporate lawyers, HR departments and PR people.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#22

Post by impendia »

RyanZAG wrote: post #20

I was with him all the way until "The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger ". The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. The 'ruling class' really doesn't care if anybody is or isn't working pointless jobs. Society as a whole is forcing people into pointless jobs by viewing anybody…

I was with you until the end.

Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#23

Post by guard-of-terra »

I wonder how much people we really need to replicate, sustain and exceed present levels of technology and culture (on another planet perhaps)?

Given that we allow every person to develop their talents of contributing to the productivity of the society. Not just being a wage drone or an unemployed drone.

My guess is: as few as a few million people today, hundred thousands when we figure out robotics.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#24

Post by Patient0 »

fab13n wrote: post #17

(wanted to post this on the website, but the comments system is off) I've found this article both entertaining and insightful; there's one big hypothesis in it which I find unnecessary, though: the conspiracy theory, making it a fight between dominant classes and actual wealth producers. If we call "bureaucracies" the collectives which consume a lot of human workforce and produce little human-enjoyable wealth out of…

Exactly. You don't need a conspiracy to describe a stable but sub-optimal outcome: you just need it to be a Nash equilibrium.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#25

Post by seanmcdirmid »

johnminter wrote: post #15
Filligree wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you'd need to move somewhere rents are really low. Rents were lower back then because rent is largely a zero-sum game, but they've risen a lot more in city cores. Actually, you should probably buy your own house. In a lot of places that's quite cheap; if there's low competition for space, it wouldn't take very long at 40 hours/week (living a cheap place) before you can afford your own.

You forget that nasty reality called property and school taxes. In reality, one never owns one's home. You own it as long as you can pay any remaining mortgage and all the taxes. Let's also not forget maintenance costs. Ever paid the bill to replace a leaking roof or kitchen appliances or...

Deprecation of assets via property tax is an incredibly good idea. When you don't have that, people see property as a speculative asset class, buy property, do nothing productive with it and...that's basically the Chinese property bubble.

Yes, you must pay taxes on your home, but that's because your home is consuming resources from the locality even if it is owned outright.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#26

Post by RyanZAG »

mixmax wrote: post #12
Filligree wrote: post #3

Some of what people want is positive-sum: Books, aquariums, theater showings, even cars. As we get more productive, the amount of time you need to work for these decreases. A lot of what people want is zero-sum: Location, status symbols, and so forth. If you want to live in the centre of town you need to work more than anyone else who so wants, not just as much as it takes to cover the maintenance. This is, I believe…

This is a good observation. I've put some effort into circumventing the zero-sum things, though I haven't thought about it this way before. I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. My living expenses come down to harbour rent, electricity and heating in the winter. Over a year that's an average of $300 a month. I live in the smack middle of Copenhagen. On top of this comes living expenses, clothes, et…

I think you're discounting that most people really don't want to live on a boat. An alternative is living in the countryside, but most people don't want to live there either.

It's not just materialism or a status symbol at play here, but the preferences of the majority of society pushing people into zero-sum. If people suddenly decided that living on a boat isn't that bad (not going to happen), then the price of docking your boat in the middle of Copenhagen would be through the roof in short order. Still zero sum.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#27

Post by Jach »

asfasfafwF wrote: post #4
BetaCygni wrote: post #2

Other people clearly don't think your job is worthless or they wouldn't be paying you to do it. The reason we don't work less is because we clearly want (and can have) more stuff than we had in the 1930's. If you're happy with the standard of living from 1930 you could probably achieve that with 10 hours of work per week.

I'm not really up on what the standard of living was like in the 30's, but is it really possible working 10 hours per week? That would barely pay rent in most places.

The trick is getting into a government subsidized housing program, making use of food stamps, and taking as many other handouts as you can get. A former friend does this and works about 10 hours a week as a dishwasher (sometimes more if they have a busy week) spending the rest of his time playing video games or reading Objectivist literature.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#28

Post by ap22213 »

For those that don't know, this is the same David Graeber [1] who wrote "Debt: The first 5000 years" [2].

"Debt" is a pretty great book, and I recommend others read it. At least, I found it illuminating to the popular concept of debt, the historical idea, and its ramifications.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#29

Post by vanderZwan »

RyanZAG wrote: post #20

I was with him all the way until "The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger ". The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. The 'ruling class' really doesn't care if anybody is or isn't working pointless jobs. Society as a whole is forcing people into pointless jobs by viewing anybody…

> The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least.

I think the implication is that that is largely a form of Stockholm syndrome.

> They'll probably go as far as to sabotage genuine useful production in an effort to prove their value.

How is this not an extra argument in favour of his claim that there are lots of bullshit jobs out there?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#30

Post by AlexanderDhoore »

mixmax wrote: post #12
Filligree wrote: post #3

Some of what people want is positive-sum: Books, aquariums, theater showings, even cars. As we get more productive, the amount of time you need to work for these decreases. A lot of what people want is zero-sum: Location, status symbols, and so forth. If you want to live in the centre of town you need to work more than anyone else who so wants, not just as much as it takes to cover the maintenance. This is, I believe…

This is a good observation. I've put some effort into circumventing the zero-sum things, though I haven't thought about it this way before. I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. My living expenses come down to harbour rent, electricity and heating in the winter. Over a year that's an average of $300 a month. I live in the smack middle of Copenhagen. On top of this comes living expenses, clothes, et…

You are my hero. I keep telling people (friends and parents) that a life like yours is possible. Not necessarily a boat, but something outside the box. But here in Flanders (Belgium), that's unthinkable. Every Fleming should have a house and very Fleming has a massive debt because of it. We love building so much, that there's almost no space left!
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