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The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

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Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#61
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious that the same or greater government spending on R&D would not have happened without the cold war. In an alternate history where government spent the same percentage of GDP without a cold war (not a huge stretch, I think, since no cold war means no red scare and presumably some higher level of survival for the political left) the amount spent on research would presumably be a lot larger. People love t…

Well, yes and no. There are some things you can only do with a sense of desperate urgency driving you (this is the means by which startups beat entrenched players). Hence the code-breaking machines that give us computers, hence rader, satellites, jet engines, etc etc etc. Would these things have come about "naturally"? Maybe, maybe not. Why would you develop computers when you had clerks and a typing pool and that wo…

> There are some things you can only do with a sense of desperate urgency driving you

I don't know how to prove or disprove this sentiment so I'm not going to say much about it other than to observe that some people manage to be pretty driven without a war threatening them, and a lot of the resources we desperately throw into a war are thrown into solving problems which are fundamentally uninteresting outside the context of that war.

The whole "war is great for the economy!" thing, in the context of something massive like WWII especially, is fundamentally arguing for the efficiency of a directed economy over a free market, which is pretty iffy.

> Hence the code-breaking machines that give us computers, hence rader, satellites, jet engines, etc etc etc.

The world had computers well before the war. Radar too, interestingly, and jet turbines. I'm not trying to be disingenuous: obviously getting radar up and running is less of a priority without WWII, and so on.

> Why would you develop computers when you had clerks and a typing pool and that worked perfectly well?

That particular conundrum took longer than the end of WWII to answer, though.

The interesting questions to me are whether something like a Manhattan Project are more of a distraction or a spur to people like Alan Turing and Johnny Von Neumann, and what would have happened to them and their field without the war and its spending. Maybe once the economy bounced back from the depression a computer industry would have begun quite a bit before it did on our timeline.

An awful lot of the visionary computer work was conducted with DARPA money over the years, but when you look at the career of someone like Robert Taylor, for example, you have to wonder if - in alternate history terms, I guess - you don't get Xerox PARC earlier or just in another context if you have less of the defense spending and more spending of our GDP on pure research.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#62
post #54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's theoretically possible to build up so many extra cities that you can actually take a 30 minute break in the game It's not only possible, it is fairly routine for good players. This is because of an interesting bug in the game which has a big effect on the skill progression of developing players. The bug is commonly called the "810" bug, because on most machines it occurs when you get 810k points. It actually o…

Let me add a few more things I just remembered. 1. The 810 bug is interesting in that there is no obvious reason for it. There's nothing interesting about that number that would lead one to expect to find bugs occurring there. It's not at any interesting boundary in decimal or binary, for instance, where it might hit some special case that is easy to botch. I've never heard any explanation for what the devil was happ…

O.O

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#63
post #60
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said that everyone in Russia just laughed it off, and they knew that nothing would ever happen. That is in large true. There was no constantl stream of news on dangers of evil empires and scare us with total annihilation. At least in the 80s it wasn't happening as far as I remember. "American imperialists" was still used in propaganda and news but it wasn't serious. Or rather few took propaganda seriously. Heck…

Could you be a little more specific about exactly how Americans were misled about the threat of war with the Soviet Union?

A few links:

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/28/cia-documents-us-drastica...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B

Also a quote from senator senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Raymond Garthoff, a C.I.A. military analyst, from early 2000s "there were consistent overestimates of the threat every year from 1978 to 1985."

Even without this it is possibly just to look at the rhetoric and the push for an accelerated arms race, spending on the Star Wars programs. Just looking back at was found on the other side, its economy, rusting machinery, terrible inefficiency, military machines running on vacuum tubes. Was that threat level warranted? No, there was no equivalent threat on the other side to justify it.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#64
post #63
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be a little more specific about exactly how Americans were misled about the threat of war with the Soviet Union?

A few links: http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/28/cia-documents-us-drastica... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B Also a quote from senator senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Raymond Garthoff, a C.I.A. military analyst, from early 2000s "there were consistent overestimates of the threat every year from 1978 to 1985." Even without this it is possibly just to look at the rhetoric and the push for an accelerated arms r…

The belief that the Cold War was ineptly prosecuted, or that military spending during the Cold War was inefficient (or even corrupt) is distinct from the belief that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat.

I'm actually having a hard time understanding the notion that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. We "overestimated" the Soviet capability, but all estimates available were so far past the margin of global catastrophe that they're not really relevant.

Again: if you want to construct an argument that politically-motivated overestimations of the Soviet nuclear arsenal were used to drive spending to profit contractors: sure. But it does not follow that nuclear war was off the table!

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#65
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who liked them? I've never played the game so it's nice to see what it looks like and not just a static screenshot.

I played it just a couple of days ago - on original Atari 800 hardware :-)

Apparently it's on Youtube now. Pause a video, click outside of it, and type 1980.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#66
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few links: http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/28/cia-documents-us-drastica... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B Also a quote from senator senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Raymond Garthoff, a C.I.A. military analyst, from early 2000s "there were consistent overestimates of the threat every year from 1978 to 1985." Even without this it is possibly just to look at the rhetoric and the push for an accelerated arms r…

The belief that the Cold War was ineptly prosecuted, or that military spending during the Cold War was inefficient (or even corrupt) is distinct from the belief that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. I'm actually having a hard time understanding the notion that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. We "overestimated" the Soviet capability, but all estimates available were so far past the margin of global catast…

> Again: if you want to construct an argument that politically-motivated overestimations of the Soviet nuclear arsenal were used to drive spending to profit contractors: sure. But it does not follow that nuclear war was off the table!

My argument was about a matter of degree. I didn't mean to say the nuclear war was off the table. But we now know that neither side was really ready to launch. It should have been the job of the intelligence agencies to correctly assess that but they didn't.

Then someone else took that and ran with it without double checking and added on a heavy layer of propaganda about evil empire and how communists were about to destroy the free world and so on.

As an addendum, as a good indication the Soviets were never going to attack first, was that they built Периметр (Perimeter) -- their dead hand device. They did that because they thought Americans would launch first. And if that happened the wanted to have a second strike (retaliatory) capability. If they were the evil empire and always wanted to attack first (like the Americans believed) they would have no incentive to build that system.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#67
post #66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The belief that the Cold War was ineptly prosecuted, or that military spending during the Cold War was inefficient (or even corrupt) is distinct from the belief that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. I'm actually having a hard time understanding the notion that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. We "overestimated" the Soviet capability, but all estimates available were so far past the margin of global catast…

> Again: if you want to construct an argument that politically-motivated overestimations of the Soviet nuclear arsenal were used to drive spending to profit contractors: sure. But it does not follow that nuclear war was off the table! My argument was about a matter of degree. I didn't mean to say the nuclear war was off the table. But we now know that neither side was really ready to launch. It should have been the j…

I guess I'm not seeing how game theory doesn't day both sides want a "dead hand" device. It's a commitment scheme.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#68
post #67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Again: if you want to construct an argument that politically-motivated overestimations of the Soviet nuclear arsenal were used to drive spending to profit contractors: sure. But it does not follow that nuclear war was off the table! My argument was about a matter of degree. I didn't mean to say the nuclear war was off the table. But we now know that neither side was really ready to launch. It should have been the j…

I guess I'm not seeing how game theory doesn't day both sides want a "dead hand" device. It's a commitment scheme.

It seems they would have a lot less incentive to do so if they were planning on attacking first. But thinking about it, that logic seems flawed since if they were planning to attack, they couldn't be 100% sure to destroy the ability for a retaliatory attack, so second strike ability was needed anyway. Ok, never mind then, you are right.

Re: The creation of Missile Command and the haunting of its creator, Dave Theurer

#69
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few links: http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/28/cia-documents-us-drastica... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B Also a quote from senator senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Raymond Garthoff, a C.I.A. military analyst, from early 2000s "there were consistent overestimates of the threat every year from 1978 to 1985." Even without this it is possibly just to look at the rhetoric and the push for an accelerated arms r…

The belief that the Cold War was ineptly prosecuted, or that military spending during the Cold War was inefficient (or even corrupt) is distinct from the belief that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. I'm actually having a hard time understanding the notion that nuclear war wasn't a realistic threat. We "overestimated" the Soviet capability, but all estimates available were so far past the margin of global catast…

Of course you're having a hard time understanding it. It's because you've been so brainwashed as a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s (just like me), believing that the Soviet Union was the "Evil Empire", and that they were so freaking evil, that they would destroy themselves just so that they could take down the US.

In fact, the Soviet Union was made up of people who loved their friends and family and didn't want to destroy the world, just like Americans. And they were no more willing to start nuclear war than Americans were. And given the fact that there was completely Mutually Assured Destruction, there was no point for the Soviet Union to ever launch a nuclear strike.

So, sure, there was always the possibility of nuclear war, just like there is currently the possibility of a nuclear war against China, or India, Pakistan, North Korea, etc. But it's not nearly as likely as we were brainwashed to believe as kids.

Instead, Reagan used this as a tool to increase support for a build-up of nuclear weapons, to increase military spending, and ultimately turned the US from the world's largest creditor to the world's largest debtor. Some might say that he saved the world from the Soviet Union by crippling them financially by goading them into an arms race that they couldn't win financially. But it was definitely on the heels of a massive propaganda campaign that none of us realized, until you actually compare notes with people who lives in the Soviet Union at the time, and understand the actually threat levels.

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