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“People simply empty out”

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Re: “People simply empty out”

#421

Post by sliverstorm »

enraged_camel wrote: post #348
hvs wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Buddhists wouldn't disagree, they would agree and state that it is an axiom of their philosophy. The whole point of Buddhism is that people want more than they need and that it offers a way out.

No, the whole point of Buddhism is that capitalism teaches people to want more than they need. It is not an inherent human quality. Our ancestors in the African Savannah weren't going out of their way to acquire material goods. They were lean .

Our ancestors in the African Savannah weren't going out of their way to acquire material goods.

Then how do you explain the necklaces, earrings, headpieces, etc etc etc found in the histories of tribes all around the world all through history?

Re: “People simply empty out”

#422

Post by ksrm »

scotty79 wrote: post #198
ahomescu1 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, keep in mind that money is not wealth. This "global elite" is not hoarding food, fuel or other basic necessities, they only have the money. New money can be printed, old money can be destroyed, new currencies can be created. The only real wealth is goods and services created/rendered by working people, and this "global elite" doesn't really have a strong grip on that.

The other thing rich people hoard is real estate. This increases price of one of most basic necessities. This also degrades the real estate resource because more people have to rent, and people who live in their own house tend to care about its state more than people who rent and people who own house just to rent it away.

A land value tax would go a long way towards fixing this. You could decrease income and sales taxes as a result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

Re: “People simply empty out”

#423

Post by agsamek »

The letter and people here do not get that most people simply want to be told what to do. This gives them main sense of work and accomplishment. This also lays down fundation for creating societies.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#424

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ctdonath wrote: post #376
scotty79 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not support your "right" to threaten the life of another to compel him to improve your situation. Does that mean that you also don't support kicking renters to the curb during winter months if they don't pay?

If they're not paying, they're trespassers. Out. They're free to pursue their right to life without violating someone else's, and they've got far more ability to provide for themselves than you're giving them credit for. Charity has its place, I advocate and facilitate it, and am not under any delusion that it comes from compelling others to contribute.

The problem with your theories being, of course, that property is theft in the first place.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#425

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tomp wrote: post #221
scotty79 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You won't have life if you don't work - or coerce it from others. There are some exceptions. You don't have to work a single day in your life if: - you inherited wealth. - you are homeless and sustain yourself with whatever you can get without paying. - you commit crimes and are put in prison. - you are a woman and merry well. - you build something as a hobby and it makes big. > That doesn't give much room for the…

> plain, abundant and worthless in our modern world as food. Excuse me, but you're an idiot. (Unless your whole comment is meant as a joke.) People exchange things that are worth less for things that are worth more. In such an exchange, both parties profit, always . In the case above, you exchange hours of your life for food so that you can live another day. Also, people are the only source of wealth. Right now, mach…

I think you should read up on "lights out" manufacturing.

Also, you are imprecise to say that "people" are the source of wealth. If we go with your claim, labor is the source of wealth, in which case capitalism is indeed systematized exploitation and theft from the true source of all wealth: workers.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#426

Post by eli_gottlieb »

gh322 wrote: post #406
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that "make the sacrifices necessary" is a useful attitude for you does not mean the cost-benefit/risk structure is actually adequate for everyone else.

Natural selection then takes hold.

Care to elaborate? I can't glean your meaning.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#427

Post by obstacle1 »

rhdoenges wrote: post #197
tankbot wrote: post #129

Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern o…

I can't stomach the guy. He was an abusive drunk who thought it was funny to kick women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0

>...women.

Would it be more tolerable to you if he were kicking a man?

Re: “People simply empty out”

#428

Post by light3 »

metricman wrote: post #142
VexXtreme wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's human nature, we're designed to always keep climbing up and striving for more. It is not healthy to constantly compare yourself with people who are worse off. Sure, it induces a sense of gratitude to know that you have clean drinking water and no threat of being killed by a warlord today (unlike many people in Africa, for instance), however if we settled for that, there would never be any incentive to impr…

Come on, human nature? Designed to keep striving? I've heard this referenced as "keeping up with the Joneses" when it's about matching consumption to your neighbors'. I never thought "keeping up with the Joneses" is part of my human nature. Or even my culture. The 'societal overlords' from previous posts you have now ascribed to human nature (??) are really 'society', perhaps influenced by some ultra-elite cadre, sur…

There is a popular TED talk on motivation, he postulates that growth is one contributing component of motivation. This may be his anecdote, but this guy has helped many people get back their motivation. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Re: “People simply empty out”

#429

Post by grey-area »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #402
grey-area wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're tilting at windmills. I didn't claim our current system is perfect or uncorrupted (the phrase least worst system clearly points out that our current systems are flawed). I don't think social improvement (however you define that) inevitably leads to some kind of totalitarianism, but I do think people claiming to have all the answers to creating a fairer society have turned out to be tyrannical more often than n…

they're not going to make people face with sober senses their real conditions of life, and their relations with others in society. I do love me some Marx on a Friday afternoon!

That's my favourite passage from that pamphlet - surprisingly poetic writing for a manifesto - and it describes conditions in the current information economy rather well, even if the 'bourgeois epoch' has proven rather more resilient than he imagined:

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#430

Post by mattmanser »

nilkn wrote: post #286
mattmanser wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of people will get married and have kids and actually want to enjoy life a little bit while working 9-5. They want to stay near their close family & friends, because they love them and want to see them and want their kids to grow up around them. Which means spending X per month on a house. They want to have a car that doesn't embarrass them when they drive into work or round their friends, because o…

> They want to have a car that doesn't embarrass them when they drive into work or round their friends, because owning a BMW has been a secret dream and it's a totally reasonable price, and a smooth ride and great acceleration. This is really pushing it. Anybody buying a BMW on $100k in Silicon Valley while paying SV-level rents is a pretty big over-consumer. If you have a family on top of that, well... you won't be…

What I've seen in my friends is that certain men will buy an expensive car on a loan, keep it 3-4 years and then swap it for a family friendly car when they have kids. Often they will buy the car 2nd hand.

The car retains the majority of its value, they enjoy the car, they're not actually spending massive amounts of money like you seem to think they are. It's essentially a hobby item that they enjoy driving.

And it's only a proportion of my friends, some just get other cars that are a lot cheaper to run.

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