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You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

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Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#141
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're worried about family tree data? Births, marriages, deaths, etc are all public information. Not databased and internetted they're not. The lion's share of that data on living people (not to mention dead people) is probably only on paper, and to get pieces of it often required a written request. Not to Godwin too hard here, but that's exactly the information that the Nazis and IBM used to detect Europeans who w…

Re: Godwin, which solution is more "brittle"? Keeping the next fascist government from gaining control of the state, or somehow managing to keep all people and companies from retaining any extra data about you? This isn't to say that we should allow companies to maintain extra data, but if that is your defense against the next Nazis you're screwed before you start, for the same reason that we say writing secure code…

I'm not defending against the Nazis, just noting why somebody might be alarmed that their connection to every member of their family is being published on the internet.

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#142
post #101
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You meet $g at a caffeinated yogurt startup tasting party. You want to form an intimate relationship with person $g. $g looks you up on SureEros.com and finds a bogus profile for you claiming you actually don't like milk products or stimulants. $g figures you lied to get into $g's pants and you look like a lamer. Race or religion $x takes over a large portion of the local government. You belong to race or religion $y…

You present a compelling case for having profiles on major social network platforms, with you controlling the shared information. I also don't know why I should desire to work at company $q which is has a completely incompetent hiring department. And governments are pretty good at progroms and determining ethnicities without using social media platforms - they've done this literally since dawn of time. If you add thi…

> I also don't know why I should desire to work at company $q which is has a completely incompetent hiring department.

The pendulum is swung our way right now. Put yourself in the position of someone going for a job in a market that's tight and competitive.

(Like trying to rent a place in Sydney or NYC, they can discard you and there'll be plenty of people left lining up to take your place.)

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is then just tagged as text, not associated with an account... Not associated with a non-shadow account.

I would suggest that the noise from associating free-typed tags (subject to spelling errors and without a user account attached) with photos would be way higher than the signal you'd gain. I even have irritating friends that tag people who aren't even present in photos just because they want them to receive a notification about it. All of that is total garbage input to any machine learning model or otherwise.

It'd be easy when editing the tag for the server to say "Does this name match this user in the imported contact list? Yes? Ok, it's most likely that person then."

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#145
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on Android, yes

I use iOS, and don't use Facebook, but you can't selectively disallow Facebook access to things like the address book? It's all or nothing?

The lack of fine-grained permissions per app is Android's fault, not Facebook's (not that they aren't benefiting).

Android application manifests means that if even just one user of your app might want to use a feature that requires elevated permissions, your entire app must be given these permissions for all users at installation time.

Which is obviously a huge security issue. What if I want to use the Facebook app but deny it permission to my address book? Not possible out of the box.

E.g. There's a feature to see if any of your phone contacts already have Facebook accounts. To service the potential people that wants this feature to work so they can easily "friend" these people on Facebook, the app must have this permission for everyone who installs it.

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#146
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "... and he shares it with Facebook, then my friend has violated my privacy... not facebook." I disagree. Your argument assumes that everyday people are aware of all the things going on with the multiple apps they install and the permissions they ask for. I'd argue that they're largely ignorant of what it means to grant something like Facebook access to your phone (contacts etc). This is because apps from companies…

> I'd argue that they're largely ignorant of what it means to grant something like Facebook access to your phone (contacts etc). Being ignorant of how information you've divulged to people is used, does not make that information private.

You're right that if a friend shares personal information we would rather be kept generally private, our friend is responsible for the privacy breach. But the person they share with can also be guilty.

Using a binary distinction (private/non-private) for privacy is unhelpful; it is more complicated than that. Things can be semi-private. Privacy is, more than anything, a matter of expectation. This means, among other things, that it is a messy and complicated thing (which it is) because people have different expectations.

You seem to be working off a definition of privacy that is close to "can be accessed by someone else" where in common usage the word means quite a bit more than that.

For example, if I'm talking to a friend in a coffee shop and someone sits down with a mic to start recording us, most people would acknowledge that they are invading our privacy. Perhaps they are legally able to do so. Some people might mock me for trying to have a private conversation in a public place. That doesn't change the fact that if I caught someone trying to listen in, I would consider it a Jerk Thing to do. Not on the basis of legality or even on practicality but on the basis of social expectation. I do not intend to share the conversation with them, nor do I expect them to access it.

Security folks tend to say things like "Expectation isn't a real barrier. You don't have any right to expect people to voluntarily not access things that they physically can." But that's a naive perspective, because social expectation is a real thing and it makes human interactions work.

Now it is true that if we abandon expectation as a real constraint, we will plunge into a dark and cynical world where everything that is not nailed down is for the taking, without recourse. But what I don't get is why we would want to do that. There are some who would say we are in that world; I'm happy to disagree with them.

I'm very happy to stay in the world where other people in the coffee shop would look at the person with the recorder and brand them creepy, because they're snooping - they're trying to access information that (whether or not they can) they're not invited to. I'm happy to keep expectation as a real barrier.

So for example, if you tell your mother your girlfriend's name, it might be a breach of privacy, depending on whether or not she expects you to do so. Your mom might be her boss...

In this case, Facebook is definitely doing a Jerk Thing and violating privacy, because they're working out of sync with peoples expectations. They ask for information for a presumed purpose (to populate your Facebook account) and then use it for an additional secret one.

For instance, if I lent my physical address book to a friend for the purpose of sending out wedding invitations for me, and they made a copy of it so they could flog their pyramid business, you can bet that my friends would be mad, but they would also accept that I was betrayed and that the real privacy violation was on the part of someone who used information they had access to in a way that was not invited or expected.

The right language of what is happening here is that of betrayal and privacy violation.

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#147
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You present a compelling case for having profiles on major social network platforms, with you controlling the shared information. I also don't know why I should desire to work at company $q which is has a completely incompetent hiring department. And governments are pretty good at progroms and determining ethnicities without using social media platforms - they've done this literally since dawn of time. If you add thi…

> I also don't know why I should desire to work at company $q which is has a completely incompetent hiring department. Then you should not try getting a job at all, since many companies have similarly incompetent HR departments, which gather background information on you that you might not otherwise wish for them to use when weighing your application.

I've never seen a company I've wished to work for that cared about my Facebook profile.

Companies that care about their employee's choice of fermented milk will go not be a good place to work at, regardless of Facebook. And they will have serious competitive disadvantages.

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#148
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Facebook was not the first social network and they will not be the last. I guess I'm more concerned about the precedent they've set, in terms of (mis)handling user data, and how other companies seem to be falling over themselves to add 'social' features. Very few companies begin with a commitment to user privacy. My fear is that FB has done some kind of irreversible damage, even if only as measured i…

I see your point, but I disagree. There will always be those that just don't give a shit, but I get the feeling that people generally are better educated about privacy and the consequences of freely giving up information online. People not respecting their own privacy is a marketing problem. Teach people it's cool to respect their privacy and people will be more careful. It used to be cool to smoke too, after all.

"It used to be cool to smoke too, after all." True, but I don't think marketing made it "uncool", at least not initially. I think that started with individuals, families, friends, health-oriented groups. . .the marketers were among the last to the table. I think the same is true of individual privacy.

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#149
post #60

Is this it? This is our brave new world of pervasive data gathering, social network analysis, and the dying gasp of any shred of privacy? This is the future we've built for ourselves? I haven't had a facebook account for 3 years. I'm certain FB has a shadow profile for me today and there's nothing I can do about it. My friends don't understand (or don't care about) the implications of everything they do online being…

You think your cognitive dissonance is bad? You're heaps ahead of where the people that "don't care" are. I try to evangelize privacy to friends and family all the time, and 60-80% of the time I am written off or ignored. Most people don't seem to want to accept the fact that something terrible may ever happen to them, and will gladly drown out the pain of dealing with a potential future threat to prolong happiness i…

and then there are those engineers who have intentionally built weapons, hoping that they would be only be used defensively, but knowing that's likely not the case. . .

Re: You Might Have an Invisible Facebook Account Even if You Never Signed Up

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use iOS, and don't use Facebook, but you can't selectively disallow Facebook access to things like the address book? It's all or nothing?

The lack of fine-grained permissions per app is Android's fault, not Facebook's (not that they aren't benefiting). Android application manifests means that if even just one user of your app might want to use a feature that requires elevated permissions, your entire app must be given these permissions for all users at installation time. Which is obviously a huge security issue. What if I want to use the Facebook app b…

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the info.
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