Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#421

Post by w0rd-driven » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 8:22 PM UTC

jkaunisv1 wrote: post #200

cliveowen wrote: post #20

Kids know how to use computers, they know how to make them do what they need them to: browsing, email, some text-processing. Everything else, and I'm sorry to break it to you, it's the realm of technicians. The plumbers don't expect the average joe to know how to unblock an occluded pipe, do they? Expecting everyone to know how to configure advanced settings in a computer just because you know how to do it it's very…

Proxy settings, I don't expect anyone to know about. But a lot of the problems he described are like taking a huge dump in your toilet, it not flushing properly, and just giving up when the plunger is right there.

"But a lot of the problems he described are like taking a huge dump in your toilet, it not flushing properly, and just giving up when the plunger is right there."

Best. Analogy. Ever.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#422

Post by w0rd-driven » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 8:57 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #108

cweaver wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computers are used in most industries today. Framing, not so much. The ability to use a computer is becoming nearly as important as being able to drive. Sure, you can do without it but you're probably not going to go very far.

Then why don't children learn to drive in elementary school?

Most of my driving skills, and my disdain for other people "who use a car and can't drive" comes from driving games in arcades as a kid.

Now that arcades are dead in the US? There goes easy access to a really useful "simulator as a game". "Driving" in a game on an iPad is nowhere near close as Race Drivin' which had a clutch, a starter key, and relatively functioned as a real car (i.e. if you picked manual expect that bitch to stall).

If I wrote a blog post about driving, I would be far more snarky and dismissive than this author. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. I borderline consider myself a "professional driver" though I would lack the credentials but it just rubs me so wrong that people are this fucking careless at it as I see every time I get behind the wheel. I'm frankly surprised some people still live.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#423

Post by rm445 » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 11:38 PM UTC

8ig8 wrote: post #44

jff wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should learn how to change the oil in their car, though.

Maybe change a tire, but I see no good reason _everyone_ needs to know how to change their oil.

It's a US thing. They change their oil every 3,000 miles whether it needs it or not (it doesn't).

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#424

Post by BruceIV » Sun, Aug 11, 2013, 1:28 AM UTC

area51org wrote: post #418

BruceIV wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are possible good reasons for this - I wouldn't give elementary students calculators, because they won't learn their math; similarly, in an educational environment (that's not teaching computing), computers are often more distracting than useful - the CS department at the university where I did my undergrad banned computers in first year lectures (not labs), because the students were playing games and browsing…

Calculators are not computers, and no one who understands what a computer is would suggest that one would somehow prevent a student from learning. We're talking about basic computer skills here: mousing, menus, command line, and some introductory coding. Those aren't nice-to-haves; they're necessities for elementary school students. the students were playing games and browsing the web instead of paying attention in c…

Fair, I agree - and I think that basic computer literacy should be taught in schools - my point was just that if the way to teach the children computer literacy is to give them laptops to use in every class (it's trendy these days), they'll find a way to play Angry Birds, and will learn neither computer literacy nor their other lessons.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#425

Post by chalst » Sun, Aug 11, 2013, 6:36 AM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #336

Author here. Thanks for the up votes and the comments - both positive and negative. I'll take all feedback into consideration when I next post anything. I didn't post this on HN myself, just added a link in a comment to another post. Just to clarify - I do want to try and fix what I perceive as the current problem. I'd hoped the post ended on a positive note, but maybe people stopped reading. (It was rather long) The…

I took away from your article that the problem was that we teach kids to use computers through UIs that conceal the computer from the user, and so we teach kids very nearly nothing about computers. Excellent point, thank you for making it, and made on the basis of your experiences. Better be condescending than fail to make the point at all for fear of being rude.

A practical point about teaching: apparently we are soon to see desktop-quality computing machinery for sale under the $100 price point. This might change the viability of the "get a computer just to learn about computing" (as opposed to a "general-purpose" computer that means access to Windows /OSX software ecosystems) for many families. For schools, it might become practical to ask families to buy/ rent such machinery in order to take part in the Linux-based "Inside Computers" course.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#426

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Aug 11, 2013, 4:46 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #291

rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except on phones, where it's not (at least, you can't click on it even if there is an icon there). And I believe Windows doesn't necessarily show the icon unless WiFi is configured. And ignition switches all look the same, not so much for WiFi settings.

I recently bought a new car, and an amusing part of the test drive experience was figuring out how to start the damned things. Half the new cars these days have a smart key system with a plain power button on the dashboard, and it took me some fiddling to figure out exactly what other actions (pushing the brake, mainly) had to be taken to make that button actually work.

But you did, eventually, figure it out on your own and make it work. That's the whole point - 95% of people are pathologically unable to do that, when it comes to technology.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#427

Post by mathattack » Sun, Aug 11, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

iopq wrote: post #352

mathattack wrote: post #50

This is a stretch for me... Should every kid know how to install Linux? And troubleshoot a proxy? Hmmm.... And is this important if they can't read or write well? I view computing as a great topic for those that are interested, but technology is getting easier. I want my kids to learn about it, and consider it for a career. But mandatory? I won't turn my nose up on anyone who doesn't understand proxy settings. That s…

I'd rather them know how to install Linux than write well. It's far more useful.

I disagree. For 95% of the world who doesn't work in the guts of computers, clear communication is more important.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#428

Post by Schwolop » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

  In this case, the person can't use a computer because people like the author condescend a bit, fix the problem in ten seconds, and don't set them up to be just a bit wiser for next time.

When I try to teach people how to fix their own problems, 90% of the time they don't care and "just want it fixed". 9% of the time they write down the instructions on a piece of paper that promptly gets lost, and the process of teaching them is considerably long than the quick fix. Perhaps 1% of the time they actually pay attention, get that spark in their eyes that shows they've learnt something new and interesting, and can demonstrate it back to me a week later. I con honestly commiserate with real teachers and lecturers now - if the ratios are anything like these it must be the most soul crushing job on the planet.

Ultimately, I've learnt that 99% of the time I'm better off fixing things quickly and moving on. I'm hoping I can instil (heh - I typed "install" first time around) curiosity in my children such that they can learn to help themselves, but my wife, parents, parents-in-law, brothers, and most of my friends are a lost cause by this point in their lives.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#429

Post by dfxm12 » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 3:11 PM UTC

RegEx wrote: post #162

GuiA wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder. As you pointed out: >The first rule of any educator is to never, under any circumstances, make someone feel inept. And it was so easily avoidable here. There are many sentences in this article indicating that this is not an isolated, unique reaction from the poster. This paragraph especially irked me: > I’ve messed up, as I’m sure many of you have. When we purchased…

> Well, maybe it shouldn't have been "techno dad to the rescue", but rather "dad spending a moment with his kids showing them how to setup a raspberry pi/their xbox/etc.". And if the kids aren't even interested in setting up their own XBox, well then that's their prerogative. Give a man a fish, etc. ... That is exactly what the paragraph you quoted means. The author regrets just doing it, and wishes he would have tak…

To further this line of thought though...

They won't always be living with "techno-dad", so it behooves them at some point to get some of that knowledge. The onus is eventually on someone to want to figure this out. To bring up a scenario from the article, I know I wanted to play Super Nintendo, so when I got one, I made damn well sure I know how to hook it up & operate it in case something went wrong. If my job relies on being connected to the Internet and editing proxy settings, it's even more important that I know the ins & outs of that...

At some point, it is clear that people don't want to learn, whether they think it is beneath them, outside of their expertise, too hard, or, in this case, they know they'll always have someone else to do it for them.

Just like I don't need to be a certified mechanic to change my own oil or a headlight, you don't need a degree in CS, CE or IS to figure out how to remove preinstalled bloatware from the computer you just bought at Best Buy or to understand that a suspicious link in an email from an unknown sender shouldn't be clicked. In any case, the answer is always a web search away...

There's nothing wrong with saving your brain power for something you like, but I think there is a knowledge divide around computers & the Internet that leads to people getting scammed out of money because people refuse to learn the basics. Or maybe they never get the opportunity to learn, I don't know. They still teach kids how to write checks in school, why not teach them about this sort of thing too?

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#430

Post by NAFV_P » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 7:47 PM UTC

joering2 wrote: post #335

F30 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People really do just assume that everything to do with computers is directly related, and that they can ask anyone to fix it for free because "it'll only take a second". I totally get your point, but to be honest they're not completely wrong about that most of the time: Even if you're usually working in an entirely different area, you probably still have more general knowledge on computing than most people. This w…

I think you missed the point or my impression after reading the article is different. I genuinely feel that the author frustration comes from the fact that people assume instead of "RTFM". Each device comes with manual, whether paper or CD. Its just that average user does not read it. Your manual will tell you there is hardware on/of switch of wireless on the side of your laptop. Had she read that, she wouldn't have…

Here is something interesting regarding the mind-state of some 'techno-geeks'. If you ask a question, you will likely get the reply 'RTFM' or some similar sounding poem. If you make a statement that is very likely to be incorrect, a lot of people who originally said 'RTFM' will now give you detailed explanations on why you are wrong. You are expected to auto-learn, but that is mostly forgotten when you feign arrogance.

I find this to be a profound dichotomy. It gets even more profound when someone makes a statement, then said statement is misunderstood by some 'techno-geeks' due to poor natural language skills. A load of 'geeks' reply to this statement taken out of context, explaining the poster's apparent ignorance of technology.

The best reply to this: 'LSFE'