Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#251

Post by mcintyre1994 » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:34 PM UTC

aetch wrote: post #232

GuiA wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder. As you pointed out: >The first rule of any educator is to never, under any circumstances, make someone feel inept. And it was so easily avoidable here. There are many sentences in this article indicating that this is not an isolated, unique reaction from the poster. This paragraph especially irked me: > I’ve messed up, as I’m sure many of you have. When we purchased…

You say that kids who know how to jailbreak their tablet and run a GBA emulator understand computers? It's usually just people downloading mystery software (could be malware but oh well) onto their computer which promises to have a button that says "jailbreak" and then they jailbreak their device with it not knowing what goes on and then use a magical 'jailbreak app' (cydia, etc) on their device which in turn gives t…

So they can Google for what they want and follow simple instructions to get the computer to do what they want? Great, that's probably enough not to have to ask somebody for help with almost any computer problem/thing you want the computer to do. Using computers will always be an exercise in sensible and appropriate abstraction, in this case I doubt they need to know how jailbreaking actually works.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#252

Post by rhizome » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:35 PM UTC

cweaver wrote: post #220

rhizome wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why don't children learn to drive in elementary school?

Because students are expected to use computers to complete their work in high school and sometimes sooner. There is no coincidence that driving classes and learners permits are given before the ability to get a licence to drive. They should learn good practices just before they are expected to perform.

Let's look at this "expected to use" assumption: are these tasks for which computers are necessary? Are they tasks for which using a computer eases the teacher's job? Are they tasks that increase the child's knowledge of computers in themselves? How is it different than learning how to cook french fries?

By the same token though, wouldn't it be a good idea for children know the rules of the road before they're gunning for their licenses? I think you contradict yourself in your last sentence.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#253

Post by cpleppert » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:35 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #86

So, here's some different themes in the thread so far, some ideas spawned from the article, and thoughts on them: Author is a jerk for the TLDR at the beginning Sure--it's unfortunate that such a red herring was thrown into an otherwise excellent article. Normal people shouldn't have to learn how to into computer. This is unreasonable. "People don't want to learn how to computer, they want to learn how to get X done"…

>>We've had personal computers for nigh-on three or four decades now, and the fact that they're still treated in popular culture as magic black boxes is a failing on our part as techies for not educating better the rest of the population. We probably did it to curry favor, to enjoy the power of knowing something they didn't, but damned if it isn't going to bite us in the end.

No, people don't know enough about computers because it it isn't a priority for them. There is no other 'reason.' Not because they don't have critical thinking skills or because they have become infantilized by iProducts.

This applies to any field, the general public if they haven't studied in that field doesn't know how it works. Think about the vaccine autism epidemic that has put babies lives at risk because they refuse to have their kids vaccinated contrary to all medical evidence. If people would put their lives at risk over a rumor how can people be expected to know how computers work?

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#254

Post by rayiner » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:35 PM UTC

BWStearns wrote: post #247

rayiner wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rebuttal to that is that people might be able to learn if software people didn't keep changing how it works. It's obvious on nearly every car since 1960 where the ignition is. Can you say the same for the Wi-Fi settings on computers?

Also, it's almost always been located in either the top right or bottom right of the screen (re. Windows/OSX here). If all of a sudden the new OSX version required a command line to connect, or changed the icon to something else, I'd understand. But to borrow from the car example, the ignition is unlikely to be located in the trunk.

Except on phones, where it's not (at least, you can't click on it even if there is an icon there). And I believe Windows doesn't necessarily show the icon unless WiFi is configured. And ignition switches all look the same, not so much for WiFi settings.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#255

Post by rhizome » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:36 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #235

rhizome wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why don't children learn to drive in elementary school?

They should. In elementary school, children should be introduced to the bare essentials of vehicular mechanics, say with simple rubber-band powered Lego cars. Over time, increase the sophistication of the science, engineering, and even social aspects of vehicles - eventually building go-carts and learning to drive them as a subset of state driving regulations, and working up to real cars and getting a driver's licens…

Yet they don't, and driving affects their lives and their driving has a potentially disastrous effect on other peoples' lives to a much greater degree than their computer use and level of skill does.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#256

Post by bennyg » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:36 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #230

bennyg wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In none of these instances did anyone attempt to seek out knowledge. They were looking for a solution. If they had said "how do I [get on the network|reinstall the OS|rip this file off YouTube]?" then it would be a lot easier for me to dismiss him as a curmudgeonly holier-than-thou IT guy. Still inexcusable, especially as an educator. Here's what I would of done: "Oh you can't connect to the internet? Watch this. S…

Almost nobody wants to listen to your lecture. They certainly aren't going to repeat it to others! They want you to do it for them, because it is beneath them.

I couldn't disagree more. It's not beneath anybody, and people ask for help all the time - some things that seem daunting or difficult are actually easy and vice versa. You prescribe too much to others' personalities without actually knowing them, and think they do the same to you.

What if I told you that you were wrong in doing so?

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#257

Post by codyb » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:38 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #105

codyb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he was trying to say is that when you've learned critical thinking as a skill you can apply it to anywhere. So, if he was on fitness news instead of saying "I'm not getting buff." He'd say, "Well, here's the work out plan based on X, Y, and Z, and I've been eating 4000 calories a day based on A, B, and C, and I've looked up this that and the other thing but I'm not having any luck still. Does anyone have…

You are underestimating the power of knowledge. I've fixed computers for people who are much smarter then me and have a higher intelligence by every reasonable measure. The reason I can fix computers is that I know about things like DHCP, "The Registry" and BIOS, systems that have very little to do with logic and are only understandable by using them for decades.

Well yes, but that intelligent person probably at least tried something like restarting, checking if another website would open if their internet seemed down, turning their wifi on and off, etc.

The DHCP, the registry, and bios certainly take a fair amount of time to learn about fully enough to understand and be able to work with.

Not figuring out the monitor isn't turned on on the other hand.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#258

Post by btbuildem » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:40 PM UTC

Wow, this guy sure trolled HN good..

If someone asks you "can you fix my computer", a good response could be "I have some time next Tuesday, it'll be $50 to figure out what's wrong, plus $100/hr to fix it".

And yes, most people are lazy and do the minimum to get by in their lives, whether in context of computers of otherwise. Don't kvetch about it, use it to your advantage.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#259

Post by ansible » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

jey wrote: post #217

tjr wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My home air conditioner stopped working a couple of weeks ago. I turned it off and on, but that was about the extent of what I felt I could intelligently do. I called a technician, who spent 15 minutes or less in my basement diagnosing the problem and replacing a capacitor. He charged me $115 to replace a $17 capacitor. I'm not complaining. I called him, I wrote the check, and I have a functioning air conditioner aga…

What about the cost of the time you would put into the class? Surely that brings the total effective cost of the course to far more than $115, to acquire a skill you're unlikely to gain much from (unless you want to learn it for its own sake or become an AC tech).

If you pick up some general electronics and mechanical skills, that will go a long ways helping to understand what might be wrong with your car, or around the house.

Just last week I replaced the inducer fan on my natural-gas furnace, with no prior training other than watching a YouTube video. I was able to deduce that the inducer was the problem in the first place, because I wasn't afraid to take off the cover and carefully observe what the furnace was and wasn't doing. And understanding at a high level how furnaces worked in the first place.

Of course, to do that, I was able to draw upon decades of experience with all kinds of systems. My training started as a child by observing and helping my father in his workshop. Even so, just having some basic, basic skills and knowledge of debugging [1] can go a long ways to isolate what the problem is and then see if it is something you can fix yourself.

[1] http://www.debuggingrules.com/

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#260

Post by sseveran » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #234

300bps wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. There are certain professions that get brought problems constantly by people who think nothing of having you work for them for free. Doctors get this constantly at parties, at the grocery store, functions for their kids, etc. "Does this look like anything to you?" To a mu…

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer."

Yeah. In college I refused to help anyone except my closest friends and basically swore them to secrecy if I did help them. Otherwise everyone who downloaded some virus from directconnect or kazaa would stop by to get help as if I have nothing better to do than wander over to their dorm room to do battle with their bad decisions.

On the other hand I did teach my mom to fish. She is even comfortable making changes in her linksys router, although she does usually call to check with me first. Making her self sufficient was great and now she asks me why everyone wants her help...