I cannot afford to go back to engineering school • Hacker News Board

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#181

Post by lysium » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 4:43 AM UTC

NamTaf wrote: post #101

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system.

"Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k.

If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#182

Post by munin » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:07 AM UTC

gems wrote: post #174

graycat wrote: post #155

Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…

About point 2 and point 3: the quality of the undergraduate education is considered in applicants to top schools. Like I said before, there is definitely a standard of rigor that you don't experience at every school. As soon as you decide to optimize for financial cost (picking the cheapest school, doing community college), you've already placed on a burden on yourself.

pretty quick to dismiss community college. I took lower division classes at one, my math classes were taught by PhDs or people with three decades of math and statistics experience. The rigor was pretty good, I transferred to a very good school from the community college and was well prepared.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#183

Post by jes » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:10 AM UTC

susi22 wrote: post #114

I consider myself very lucky. I did my undergrad and never struggled with money. My parent never supported me with a dime since they didn't have much. I didn't have any scholarships. I saved up some money from high school and used that for the first year of college, then started working as an co-op. How did I do it? I went to school in Germany. That's also where I'm from. Back then there was no tuition and I only pai…

With respect, it seems wrong to suggest kidnapping people and threatening to kill them unless they indirectly finance your education.

There are real expenses associated with running a university. Professors and staff have to be paid; buildings have to be maintained; supplies have to be purchased, etc.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#184

Post by gems » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:24 AM UTC

munin wrote: post #182

gems wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About point 2 and point 3: the quality of the undergraduate education is considered in applicants to top schools. Like I said before, there is definitely a standard of rigor that you don't experience at every school. As soon as you decide to optimize for financial cost (picking the cheapest school, doing community college), you've already placed on a burden on yourself.

pretty quick to dismiss community college. I took lower division classes at one, my math classes were taught by PhDs or people with three decades of math and statistics experience. The rigor was pretty good, I transferred to a very good school from the community college and was well prepared.

1. The point was "there is a standard of rigor that you don't experience at every school". I could have used anything as an example. It doesn't matter that I picked community college. If you agree with that statement, then do you disagree with the conclusion: that once you go down that path, you the student, have a burden to explain to everyone how the quality of education compares with the best?

Technically, yeah, I made a generalization: cheaper schooling means shittier quality education (not bad, just worse). Of course, I haven't stepped into every community college classroom. But this is the psychology of the people looking at your application.

Technically technically, what actually matters is all the things that go along with going to a cheaper school, not really the fact that it's cheap.

2. "The rigor was pretty good" - does that mean you kept taking math classes (real analysis, etc)? If not, then how can you make that claim?

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#185

Post by gaadd33 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:27 AM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #94

EvanKelly wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analysis is mostly correct, but it leaves out the option of really hustling for scholarship money. My good friend from high school was in a position of not being able to afford our flagship state school, even though he got accepted. He basically made it his full time job to scour all of the scholarship websites and apply to everything he was even minimally eligible for. He was constantly writing, or alte…

The problem is most scholarship programs with significant awards have a single-digit number of winners. This strategy works for a few of the most shining individuals in the country in any given year who dedicate the time required and get extremely lucky. I tip my hat to your friend, but the nature of scholarship programs is that for every kid like your brother, hundreds more worked just as hard, had just as much hust…

I think he means his friend hustled for the ones that on their own were not significant. Like I think my credit union gives out 5 $500 scholarships a semester. It wouldn't surprise me if the only people who apply are those who's parents work there. If you found a ton of programs like that it can make a pretty sizable dent.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#186

Post by gaadd33 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:30 AM UTC

hga wrote: post #163

bane wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno then. It's exactly what I did. I had to show lots of paperwork, bills in my name, apartment rent payment and cashed rent checks, bank account info etc. But once over that hurdle I was in like Flynn (except I didn't have wealthy parents in the first place).

My school is exceptionally expensive, almost $60K last academic year, and had been historically very bad with their endowment and earning money from inventions, and was one of the post-Civil war ones so didn't it have centuries of compounding donations. Iffy alumni loyalty, particularly for unrestricted donations. In face, tuition was very very highly prized because it was unrestricted....

Wow I didn't think MIT was that badly managed.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#187

Post by frogpelt » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:32 AM UTC

lysium wrote: post #181

NamTaf wrote: post #101

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

Why do people not understand that many people are poor not because they were born into something less than a utopia but because they are lazy or happy that way or they make bad decisions or are just plain ignorant?

Have you once stopped to consider that there may not be anything close to a perfect system for lifting people out of poverty?

Perhaps a system that provides possibility that requires loads of effort to take advantage of is the best that can be done.

A country simply cannot pay for the aggregation of "necessities" that the populace dreams up.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#188

Post by dclowd9901 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:33 AM UTC

As a college grad with a degree in Journalism working as an engineer in Silicon Valley, maybe my opinion on your situation can give you assurance:

So the fuck what. They just did you a favor.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#189

Post by rlanday » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:44 AM UTC

lysium wrote: post #181

NamTaf wrote: post #101

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

It’s not clear that that would necessarily lead to better allocation of resources; I’m sure there are some degrees that give people skills to create a lot of value, but right now people can already borrow money to get a degree if they think it’s going to pay off; on the other hand, there’s currently so much societal pressure to go to college, a lot of students spend a lot of time and money on worthless degrees that don’t really help them, or if they do help them, only as a (very slow and inefficient) signaling effect that they’re the type of person that can make it through college. I’m not really sure what problem having the government pay for college tuition would solve. It would probably just exacerbate the current problem of colleges having no incentive to keep costs down as long as people are dead-set on getting a degree regardless of the costs or lack of benefit.

I think a better solution than basically throwing fuel on the fire is to educate people about what their options are to help them make sound economic decisions, including different degree options and their value in the job market, and also about options if they choose not to go to college, since a lot of college graduates end up taking jobs they don’t need degrees for. There also needs to be a reversal in the trend of employers requiring college degrees as a form of signaling; I think evidence suggests that college admissions boards aren’t really any better at predicting student success than results from intelligence tests like the SAT. It’s going to be very politically controversial to convince people that a lot of the value associated with having a college degree is actually just in being a smart person, but I think it would make the economy hugely more efficient and save people from having to go to college just to signal their intelligence. Another big part of the solution, for those who do actually need to learn things and earn licenses, is going to be legitimizing and popularizing new forms of education made possible by technology, e.g. MOOCs, and somehow setting more efficient methods of credentialing to go with.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#190

Post by munin » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 5:44 AM UTC

gems wrote: post #184

munin wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pretty quick to dismiss community college. I took lower division classes at one, my math classes were taught by PhDs or people with three decades of math and statistics experience. The rigor was pretty good, I transferred to a very good school from the community college and was well prepared.

1. The point was "there is a standard of rigor that you don't experience at every school". I could have used anything as an example. It doesn't matter that I picked community college. If you agree with that statement, then do you disagree with the conclusion: that once you go down that path, you the student, have a burden to explain to everyone how the quality of education compares with the best? Technically, yeah, I…

I'm not sure about "cheaper schooling, lower quality". In engineering and computer science there are state schools that compete, IMO, pretty handily with "the best". you might snigger and scoff, but hiring managers at good companies don't.

also, if you start your degree at a CC and transfer to a 4 year to finish, what does it says on your diploma? exactly what it would say if you went there for four years. I wouldn't recommend keeping secrets about your life, but if no one asks...

I did keep taking math classes! I have a math minor.