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Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

schneier.com

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Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#31

Post by nakedrobot2 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

A lot of people in tech want to complain about innovation. Why are there so many Farmville apps and nobody seems to be solving important problems? Well here you are, the biggest and most important problem in modern society today, the fact that our governments are recording most everything that we're doing. And they will use these recordings as they see fit in the future. You couldn't ask for a bigger or more importan…

Thank you, thank you!

While I wouldn't consider myself one of the people to be doing something as despicably useless as writing farmville or designing PPC ads (I guess others might beg to differ), your observation is very good.

Here is a real problem, and if you don't think it's affecting you personally, you're deceiving yourself.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#32

Post by Xylakant »

maxk42 wrote: post #2

Why on earth would you want people to trust the government? That's what got us into this mess.

You can't verify everything and everyone you're dealing with on a daily basis. You need to trust someone. If you're not trusting your government you need to trust the people watching the government. Or the people watching the people watching the government. Or... It's turtles all the way down from there. The government acts as a large trust provider in a lot of daily interactions. Police authority derives from the government. Passports and ID-cards derive their validity from trust in the government...

So it would be nice if in general we could trust the government and to be able to trust the government we need them to be open and transparent about what they do in our name - and held accountable if they fuck up in our name.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#33

Post by junto »

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society growing like hydra's heads in front of their very eyes. The complaints are muted. The mass media looks the other way. Why?

To me this means:

- the system is broken

- the current political framework (especially in the US) is a fabrication, designed to make you believe that you have a choice, but in reality your vote is meaningless and your choice an empty vassal. The red pill is just a blue pill painted red.

The problem is that the intrusions so far, do not impact the majority in such a way as to hinder their daily quality of life. The change from a private world to a 'all-seeing government' is slow, but it is sustained. At some point we will reach a tipping-point, and then the only option is revolution, because by that point, the system will have enveloped the public fabric of life so tightly, that there will be no way to gently extricate ourselves.

It is your (US) own great thinker and do-er that said:

   “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a
   little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor 
   safety.” 
   ― Benjamin Franklin, Memoirs of the life & writings 
     of Benjamin Franklin
The irony is that the 'little temporary safety' may well have been a ruse. Even if Al-Qaeda is a real and present danger to the US at home, I doubt that the scale of that threat is worth the loss of liberty and the billions of dollars spent on funding the 'fight against terror'.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#34

Post by jseliger »

junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for?

Greens or libertarians, which I have been doing for a long time. Real change starts at the ballot box.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#35

Post by junto »

jseliger wrote: post #34
junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Greens or libertarians, which I have been doing for a long time. Real change starts at the ballot box.

Which is great and I would even good as far to say 'noble', but in a political system like the United States, your vote is wasted, because your vote is not proportionally represented in the House of Representatives. It means you face an ever-challenging battle against almost impossible odds in order to get your green or libertarian candidate into the House of Representatives.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#36

Post by Xylakant »

junto wrote: post #35
jseliger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Greens or libertarians, which I have been doing for a long time. Real change starts at the ballot box.

Which is great and I would even good as far to say 'noble', but in a political system like the United States, your vote is wasted, because your vote is not proportionally represented in the House of Representatives. It means you face an ever-challenging battle against almost impossible odds in order to get your green or libertarian candidate into the House of Representatives.

Here in germany the system is a bit more complicated but there's also candidates that get selected by a majority vote and it used to be that people said "if you're giving your vote to the greens, the vote is wasted." That used to be true since nobody wanted to waste his vote - until enough people did so. Now there's three strong parties contesting.

Even if the greens/liberals/whatever don't get elected, showing that there is a growing support for their positions sends a message. It's better than not voting or supporting the lesser of two evils.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#37

Post by jseliger »

junto wrote: post #35
jseliger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Greens or libertarians, which I have been doing for a long time. Real change starts at the ballot box.

Which is great and I would even good as far to say 'noble', but in a political system like the United States, your vote is wasted, because your vote is not proportionally represented in the House of Representatives. It means you face an ever-challenging battle against almost impossible odds in order to get your green or libertarian candidate into the House of Representatives.

your vote is wasted

I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change. Every vote counts. Hell, if Republicans and Democrats start seeing 10% of the votes going to greens or libertarians, they'll pay real close attention.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#38

Post by MrMan »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

A lot of people in tech want to complain about innovation. Why are there so many Farmville apps and nobody seems to be solving important problems? Well here you are, the biggest and most important problem in modern society today, the fact that our governments are recording most everything that we're doing. And they will use these recordings as they see fit in the future. You couldn't ask for a bigger or more importan…

The embarrassment of helping advertising dollars find a home instead of doing anything real is in my opinion why a lot of HN-ers are always solemnly intoning that this is no place for politics - because they can't face a world outside of their bubble. For us to have the luxury to prosper inside our post-consumerist javascript (and ARC)-based gift economy, we periodically have to do some maintenance work, like figuring out how to stop our country from becoming any more of a tyranny than it already is.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#39

Post by MrMan »

visarga wrote: post #29
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget mesh networking. Seems like mesh with a combination of trusted anonymous P2P would be very difficult to tap into. There's lots of nerd fun here for those interested. And there's a big need. A shame more folks aren't stepping up to the plate. Just to whet the appetite, how much of the internet do you actually participate in, versus just consume? Most server stats show a 40-1 or even 200-1 ratio of readers…

Bittorrent is so last decade! We need a replacement that is truly anonymous. An not just file sharing, but also browsing, email and search. Problem is, suppose TOR is fixed and we are anonymous on its network, we still need to NEVER log in with an account we used over clear net. We have to give up our "friend" lists on FB and followers on Twitter, our karma on reddit, all that could tie us back to a known identity. W…

No snark, this is a chance for the libertarians to be vindicated in a big way. Let's see if the geniuses of the software/IT world can design and build a world-wide infrastructure that replaces the DARPA internet, without government help? It would put paid to a lot of tropes propagated in the last 20 years about the decreasing importance of the state, the evil of the state (which is in clear evidence here). Are we capable of allocating capital and human resources at the scale required? Facebook has a billion users, so the network effects should be easy to harness, no? Or does it only work for capturing ad dollars and spying on activists? I am sincerely asking - if there is to be any hope, we have to advance past the internet as it is technically constituted, while preserving the huge social gains it has brought.

edit - maybe I should clarify - anonymity is not possible now, and it is at odds with the values of the police state and, unfortunately, the ad-driven media economy. I am agreeing that anonymity is important, and asserting that to reclaim it, we will have to come up with some revolutionary social constructs on a scale of the space program, that exclude the possibility of government involvement.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#40

Post by mseebach »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #23
twoodfin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is literally that simple. If Bush ordered this surveillance started, Obama can order it stopped. The NSA works for him. If they don't do as he asks he can start firing people until they do. Obviously Schneier understood this when he wrote his 2005 column.

I think it has gone beyond that - if Obama stood up and said "I've made that phone call, Gen. Alexander is turning off PRISM as we speak" would anyone believe it? Its verifiability that counts.

Well, he could very easily create an independent committee with input from EFF and such organisations (they should be able to find some technically competent people with TS clearances they trust) to go in and review the systems.
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