Haven't read the article yet, but this might be the first time I've found a comparison to Hitler helpful. I'm religious (Christian) and related to some very homophobic people - comparing gay people to Jews actually seems like a perfect way to convey "See these people who believe and live differently than we do? They're still good, sincere people, and you just don't make their lifestyle illegal when it's not hurting you".
Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
61–70 of 80 posts
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
OK, yes, it's this attitude which I was disagreeing with: Sports and politics may be innately interconnected, but that doesn't mean we should seek to make sports even more political. To have a requirement that the Olympics is hosted only in countries with political approval by [Stephen Fry/Western cultural values] would prevent it from having any global influence. Should the Olympics ultimately alternate between the…
"Make sports even more political" -- this is our disagreement, yes. You think sports and politics are somehow 'independent things' -- but they aren't. Best parallel would be: money and wealth and private property and capital and production are all connected. Communists said they really aren't, and should be made 'less connected' - somehow, they want to have production without everything else. Well, we all know it doe…
You have not addressed my main point, so I will simplify it:
The Olympics cannot judge a host country for its political values, or it would have a strong cultural bias and not be a global event.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#63I think some people become very indignant about this issue only because it's Russia. I don't see that much indignation at other nations that treat non heterosexual people worst. Other nations whose treatment of women and religious minorities can't not but be called barbarous. Some of whom are close allies of the USA. I personally see no problem with how other nations manage their internal affairs, as long as they kee…
"Other countries do it too!" is a common derailing tactic, and it's not worth very much consideration.
I will note, however, that Russia is hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics. Traditionally, hosting the Olympics has been a pretty good catalyst for getting the world to bring your country under a bit of scrutiny. If the Olympics were being held in Dubai, then the only reason we wouldn't be hearing about how they treat gays would be all of the screaming the plethora of other social issues plaguing the UAE.
As for:
>I personally see no problem with how other nations manage their internal affairs, as long as they keep to themselves.
If your neighbor were murdering women in his basement, would you say "Well, that's just his business really. I should keep to myself and not bother him"?
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#64He surely does. Most Russians have not once meet a person who they would know as an open gay. And still they've got an Opinion despite that. (Hitler's Germans had at least meet Jews in their life) It's a sad story about how media wrecks the minds of rednecks.
As long as gays stay in the closet, heterosexuals (and even homosexuals in large part) will feel homosexuality as "wrong". The human mind defines "acceptable sexual context" by what it gets presented, especially early in life. That's why homosexuals have to display their sexuality in public, or the discrimination and homophobia will never end.
That may be true, but if so, gays coming out is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to ending homophobia.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Make sports even more political" -- this is our disagreement, yes. You think sports and politics are somehow 'independent things' -- but they aren't. Best parallel would be: money and wealth and private property and capital and production are all connected. Communists said they really aren't, and should be made 'less connected' - somehow, they want to have production without everything else. Well, we all know it doe…
You have not addressed my main point, so I will simplify it: The Olympics cannot judge a host country for its political values, or it would have a strong cultural bias and not be a global event.
sorry, didn't realize this was the main point
I've never read the Olympics code, list of principles etc, but I can imagine there's something about human dignity and freedom and liberty? Well, liberty should be a lowest common denominator. I.e. -- your culture allows some people to enslave and oppress other people, and deny them life, property and dignity? Well your culture is a piece of shit and you don't host Olympics. Easy! Cultural bias? Sure - cultural bias of human against blood-sucking goblins doesn't sound too bad.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#66There is quite a leap from Russian anti gay propaganda laws to boycotting the Olympics. Many people would argue that laws supporting any kind of torture or the death penalty are human rights abuses so should any and all countries practicing those laws be forbidden from partaking in or hosting something so arbitrary as the Olympics? I'm not arguing that this wouldn't be an effective way to get the Russian government t…
As far as I've seen, nobody in those countries has publicly threatened Olympic athletes with torture or the death penalty, simply for the crime of existing.
I'm open to counterexamples, if I'm wrong.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fortunately, Nazi Germany didn't arrest Jesse Owens upon arrival to the country. Russia has made it clear that they will not afford the same freedom to gays and lesbians, or more to the point they plan on arresting them immediately upon arrival.
Why would they? It's not a crime to be gay. The crime is "gay propaganda" (that is, anything that publicly references gays basically). You're not helping anyone by spreading FUD.
It isn't FUD. You're basically saying it is ok, as long as gays keep their mouths shut, and don't utter "propaganda".
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#68I think for the first time in history, this article committed suicide under the terms of Godwin's law before it was even navigated to. More seriously, this is standard practice: label the enemy, even if it's wrong or you created the label yourself.
Sigh.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of an invocation of Godwin's Law approaches 1.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fortunately, Nazi Germany didn't arrest Jesse Owens upon arrival to the country. Russia has made it clear that they will not afford the same freedom to gays and lesbians, or more to the point they plan on arresting them immediately upon arrival.
Why would they? It's not a crime to be gay. The crime is "gay propaganda" (that is, anything that publicly references gays basically). You're not helping anyone by spreading FUD.
No, this is not true. It is probably a bad law, but "anything that publicly references gays" is not a crime. The law only establishes a fine (not prison term) for promoting homosexuality as a norm for children under 16. Personally, I do not see how you could do it without being prosecuted for violating "Obscene publications act" in UK or similar laws in US.
There was fairly similar law in Britain until 2003: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28
Also, I should note there is no protests supporting gay rights in Saudi Arabia were homosexuality is punished by death.
Also see: https://marknesop.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/somewhere-over-th... , https://marknesop.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/warning-explicit-...
Biased, but biased in a different way then usual articles on this subject and therefore useful.
Re: Stephen Fry: Putin is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews
#70This is blatantly political content. There is not even a tangential connection to the Internet, technology, startups...
What's next? A "what you're listening to right now" thread? "Post your pic"?