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Profiling Atherton

kentbrew.github.io

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Re: Profiling Atherton

#41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming lots of people get pulled over for various infractions, and the Hispanics among them are the ~only ones who are unlicensed and are thus the ~only ones cited for being unlicensed. Other citation types appear less biased (I just scanned, I didn't do actual analysis, I'm trying to finish my RSA 2014 submissions right now). There may be profiling in pulling over "old/cheap" cars more for the same violations,…

Are Hispanic people unlicensed at such a high rate relative to the general population that it would fit this data? Also, > I don't think most police would let anyone have a pass on unlicensed/suspended is a direct contradiction to: > Even if someone were unlicensed and caught, if you didn't have the cause to stop him for something else, he'd walk on the unlicensed driver charge. Which you posted above. [edited to fix…

1) Most Hispanic people in the Bay Area are US citizens or lawful residents, and licensed (and pay taxes, and are otherwise generally representative of everyone else). We're talking about the set of people who get caught for unlicensed/suspended, which is already a pretty small subset, and not representative of the overall population at all.

However, most unlicensed people are that way due to immigration status, which is almost entirely Hispanic people (since our illegal immigrants are essentially all Mexican or Guatemalan). Suspended license people are often DUI or other things like that, which I'd assume is much more universal. I don't know the breakdown between unlicensed and suspended; generally I think suspended/revoked are punished more harshly than unlicensed, partially because you have to be a fuckup to get your license suspended in the first place, and it's a bit more willful to continue driving at that point. If there were no legal way to get a license, it's a lot more morally defensible to drive anyway (although, insurance...); fortunately CA seems to make it possible to get a license anyway, so failing to do so is an affirmatively lame action.

2) No -- I meant if you wanted to prosecute someone for the unlicensed, but your PC to stop him originally was bad (i.e. you claimed he ran a red light, but it turns out he didn't), the court would let him walk (rather, it'd never go to trial).

If a cop had legitimate PC to stop, and then stopped and found suspended license, the cop would almost certainly cite/arrest/whatever for the suspended license.

Those are two entirely different cases. (It's pretty easy to generate legitimate PC to pull ~anyone over, though, due to how the vehicle code is written and how people actually drive.)

(Another unanswered question is "is there a variation in vehicle maintenance or driving rule compliance in different race/ethnicity drivers?" -- I tend to think there isn't. Even if you wanted to go by rich/poor, I've even seen plenty of expensive cars with maintenance issues, and obnoxious rich people with huge numbers of bikes on bike racks obscuring license plates, unsecured loads, etc. The only real distinction I've seen is that pickup truck drivers, in general, are the cause of almost all object-in-road problems.)

Re: Profiling Atherton

#42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I just posted the same thing you did. Also: Strawman: 'Well these people all drive crappy cars with stuff wrong with them' Teardown: Where's all the traffic violations for poor white people? Poor black people? Further, what about all the other kinds of traffic violation (drunk driving etc.)? Are Hispanics the only people who ever do anything wrong on the road?

There are not a lot of poor white or poor black people in RWC/Atherton; it's mainly rich white/asian people and poor hispanic people, in my experience. Poor people are relatively more segregated by race in the Bay Area than I'd expect -- poor white people tend to be in various parts of the East Bay, poor black people in a few specific neighborhoods of SF and EPA and Oakland/Richmond, poor asians in some parts of the…

And no poor non-Hispanic people driving through on El Camino, getting from A to B? I don't know the local geography, but I would assume that a main thoroughfare would get _some_ non-residents.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#43
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are not a lot of poor white or poor black people in RWC/Atherton; it's mainly rich white/asian people and poor hispanic people, in my experience. Poor people are relatively more segregated by race in the Bay Area than I'd expect -- poor white people tend to be in various parts of the East Bay, poor black people in a few specific neighborhoods of SF and EPA and Oakland/Richmond, poor asians in some parts of the…

And no poor non-Hispanic people driving through on El Camino, getting from A to B? I don't know the local geography, but I would assume that a main thoroughfare would get _some_ non-residents.

ECR is not a great road to take for any distance, since it has stoplights everywhere. It's parallel to two expressways (101 and 280), so it's really only applicable to maybe a 5 mile radius, otherwise you'd take another road.

As far as I can tell, there are ~no poor people living in Atherton, Palo Alto, or most of Menlo Park, unless you count startup founders, retirees who live on low retirement incomes in $5mm present-value homes, and the like. There are poor people living in RWC (sort of), who are almost exclusively Hispanic (at least from the neighborhoods I saw; I was looking at houses in North Fair Oaks and RWC at one point.) Even the poor people in RWC didn't seem that poor, more like working class or middle class (which is poor by comparison to Atherton.)

There are poor people in EPA and Belle Haven (Menlo Park east of 101). They would be very unlikely to take ECR through Atherton, though, since 101 is closer. (they used to be almost exclusively black, now it's partially black and partially hispanic and partially pacific islander). And even there, real estate is now becoming absurdly expensive again.

There are weird poor (white, and other) people living in the inaccessible parts of Portola, but they seemed really old, or rarely left their homes, and they probably weren't actually poor, just "people who live in the middle of the woods and are kind of weird."

Re: Profiling Atherton

#44
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Hispanic people unlicensed at such a high rate relative to the general population that it would fit this data? Also, > I don't think most police would let anyone have a pass on unlicensed/suspended is a direct contradiction to: > Even if someone were unlicensed and caught, if you didn't have the cause to stop him for something else, he'd walk on the unlicensed driver charge. Which you posted above. [edited to fix…

1) Most Hispanic people in the Bay Area are US citizens or lawful residents, and licensed (and pay taxes, and are otherwise generally representative of everyone else). We're talking about the set of people who get caught for unlicensed/suspended, which is already a pretty small subset, and not representative of the overall population at all. However, most unlicensed people are that way due to immigration status, whic…

Ok, after reading your response, I was somewhat confused, and now looking at the code, it seems like the drivers licenses are done in California is quite a bit different than here, in Australia.

It seems that in California, at least, there is a legal distinction between a 'revoked' license and being 'unlicensed'.

In Australia, AFAIK there's no distinction; if you commit an offence serious enough to have your license revoked, then you no longer have a license and are unlicensed; i.e. it's the license that gives you the right to drive, and if your license is revoked then you don't have a license any more.

It's the same deal for suspensions - in Australia, if your license is suspended, then you're by definition unlicensed for the period.

So there may be a semantic mismatch where I misunderstood you.

It would seem that in California, pretty much the only way you could get a 12500(a) is if you'd never held a license at all; in this case, it fits your assertion that Hispanics are the only _unlicensed_ drivers.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#45
Cruise down Middlefield past Marsh and somewhere around 5th you'll understand. There are two very different groups of people living very close together.

In the daytime, workers motor towards the money to toil in the plutocrats' homes and gardens. A lot of them are illegal immigrants driving marginal toyota pickups overloaded with tools and co-workers.

Nighttime brings-out the drunkards and the criminals. The police ward off the latter and move the former back into RWC.

These folks are just like you coming to Sand Hill to pitch your startup: they want money & this is where it's at. They're the same in that some will toil & some will grift. They're different in that the deviant poor are more likely to turn to violence and theft, while the psychopathic want-to-be-rich become consultants at Accenture or KPMG.

The rich & the poor look & behave differently. A battered PU stands-out as much as an Athertonian's Fisker just 2 miles down the street the "wrong" way.

They need to be protected from one another. Atherton is way too nice to be real, yet it exists, so it has to be buffered. That requires vigilance. Bay Aryans have delicate sensibilities around inegalitarianism; i.e., you need good police who will go about the business w/o putting it on display.

Same thing in Palo Alto. It has a stark socio-economic border with East Palo alto that requires sophisticated social policing. As a Palo Alto resident (or high-tech gastarbeiter) you feel safe and secure in a shared culture of prosperity. Yet (underreported) property crime and (unreported) deportations tell a different story: safety isn't a given, it's provided by vigilant, sophisticated police & enabled by a populace willingly suspending disbelief.

Catch a glimpse by spending your lunch at the transit center or your evening smoking in any alley off of University. People-watching at the PA Caltrain socio-economic nexus radically changed my "feel" of PA.

It's hard to overstate the difference between (poor parts of) RWC & Atherton, EPA & PA, or Belle Haven/Ravenswood & Menlo Park. If you're local, it's well worth driving (or better biking) from one to another to get the sense: incredibly, unbelievably nice on the one hand; fucking shit awful on the other. My gut says: there's something really wrong with this. But my head can't figure-out what to do about it.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Most Hispanic people in the Bay Area are US citizens or lawful residents, and licensed (and pay taxes, and are otherwise generally representative of everyone else). We're talking about the set of people who get caught for unlicensed/suspended, which is already a pretty small subset, and not representative of the overall population at all. However, most unlicensed people are that way due to immigration status, whic…

Ok, after reading your response, I was somewhat confused, and now looking at the code, it seems like the drivers licenses are done in California is quite a bit different than here, in Australia. It seems that in California, at least, there is a legal distinction between a 'revoked' license and being 'unlicensed'. In Australia, AFAIK there's no distinction; if you commit an offence serious enough to have your license…

There are a tiny number of people who don't get licenses because they don't believe the state should have the authority to license them, and maybe a few others who don't because they're otherwise on the run for other crimes (but never got a license), and others who have licenses but are living under other identities (which isn't strictly illegal; only if it's being done to defraud. If you thought MS-13 was out to kill you, it might be prudent to give up your identity, including your license, assume another identity, and thus be "unlicensed")

There are also people who have non-valid licenses by being in-state for a long time with another state license, or perhaps a foreign license (i.e. they had a UK license, came to the US for a long time, failed to correctly get a CA license when they were able to do so.)

But those are all in the statistical noise, I think, vs. undocumented immigrants who either can't get licenses (most states) or don't (because they're afraid CA DMV will turn their records over to DHS ICE, I guess?)

Re: Profiling Atherton

#47
post #19
post #16

My [non-Hispanic] girlfriend lives in Atherton. Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. Needless to say, she's moving up to the City s…

Where do you buy tacos in Atherton? And $1 tacos at that?

[deleted]

Re: Profiling Atherton

#48
post #21
post #16

My [non-Hispanic] girlfriend lives in Atherton. Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. Needless to say, she's moving up to the City s…

Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. That wasn't Atherton, that was Redwood City. I know, on the peninsula it kind of all blurs tog…

No it was literally a block from the Atherton Caltrain haha

Re: Profiling Atherton

#49
post #19
post #16

My [non-Hispanic] girlfriend lives in Atherton. Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. Needless to say, she's moving up to the City s…

Where do you buy tacos in Atherton? And $1 tacos at that?

There are at least five El Grullense's ($1.25 tacos) and tons of competitors that advertise $1 tacos. Definitely merges into RWC territory though.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#50
FWIW, I've been pulled over in Atherton. Something about an "illegal" left turn.

In an expensive car. At the time, I owned a property there too, and my license had that address. Got a ticket. Went to court. Judge agreed that it wasn't illegal turn.

Just sayin.

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