Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Profiling Atherton

kentbrew.github.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 66 posts

Re: Profiling Atherton

#31

Post by bloopletech »

rdl wrote: post #10

It seems pretty natural that if the serious penalties are for being unlicensed drivers (14602.6 VC, the $1800 thing), and most of the unlicensed people have Hispanic names/are Hispanic (which I think is generally true, in California), most of the people who get serious penalties for being unlicensed drivers will be Hispanic. There's no particular racism there on the part of the Atherton police in that. You have to ha…

So... if being unlicensed is not a sufficient justification for a traffic stop, then why are these drivers being pulled over in the first place?

Are you saying that they get pulled over for something else, and it so happens that they are also unlicensed?

In that case, why is it only Hispanic drivers being pulled over? Are Hispanics the only ethnic group in the areas north and south that commit traffic infractions?

Re: Profiling Atherton

#32

Post by lobotryas »

wozniacki wrote: post #14

Insightful. However, since we live in such hyper-partisan times where news outlets toe the political line and play to the cheap seats, this story will never be picked up by the national media. I'd be astounded if (or especially) a Krystal Ball or Tamron Hall or Chris Matthews gave this even a passing glance or the sundry treatment in one of their segments. Why? Because this is Northern California. Scratch that. This…

Is this really insightful or is this another case of "correlation not implying causation"?

Have you paused to consider the geography of these cities, their respectful populations, commute profiles or other socio-economic data? Of course not - you're a busy person just like all of us and we all rely on others to provide digestible, bite-size chunks of information arranged "just so" to help us come to the same conclusion as the author.

But I digress. Please look at the above replies and consider that few things are as black-and-white as people want us to believe.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#33

Post by rdl »

jdale27 wrote: post #21
ngoel36 wrote: post #16

My [non-Hispanic] girlfriend lives in Atherton. Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. Needless to say, she's moving up to the City s…

Hispanics run that city. At first I thought it was great for my taco habit, but after our second or third burrito date I quickly realized the locals were not as thrilled to have us. We were glared at often, and my rusty Spanish was good enough to pick up murmurs of "puta madre" and other various obscenities as we walked by. That wasn't Atherton, that was Redwood City. I know, on the peninsula it kind of all blurs tog…

What's weird about North Fair Oaks (unincorporated SMC) is that it's not really "Hispanics", it's "people from Michoacan state (in Mexico)". I'm not sure what causes large numbers of people from one relatively small area to move to another specific relatively small area far away.

They do make really good bread.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#34

Post by bloopletech »

auctiontheory wrote: post #28
rdl wrote: post #10

It seems pretty natural that if the serious penalties are for being unlicensed drivers (14602.6 VC, the $1800 thing), and most of the unlicensed people have Hispanic names/are Hispanic (which I think is generally true, in California), most of the people who get serious penalties for being unlicensed drivers will be Hispanic. There's no particular racism there on the part of the Atherton police in that. You have to ha…

I think the point of the story is that drivers with dark skin are (it appears) much more likely to be pulled over in the first place. if the initial infraction isn't worth citing, no big deal Well, no. The whole objection to profiling, whether Hispanic drivers in Atherton or black kids in NYC, is that the cops have no good reason to be stopping them in the first place. This report provides no data on how many red-lig…

I think I just posted the same thing you did. Also:

Strawman: 'Well these people all drive crappy cars with stuff wrong with them' Teardown: Where's all the traffic violations for poor white people? Poor black people? Further, what about all the other kinds of traffic violation (drunk driving etc.)? Are Hispanics the only people who ever do anything wrong on the road?

Re: Profiling Atherton

#35

Post by bloopletech »

auctiontheory wrote: post #28
rdl wrote: post #10

It seems pretty natural that if the serious penalties are for being unlicensed drivers (14602.6 VC, the $1800 thing), and most of the unlicensed people have Hispanic names/are Hispanic (which I think is generally true, in California), most of the people who get serious penalties for being unlicensed drivers will be Hispanic. There's no particular racism there on the part of the Atherton police in that. You have to ha…

I think the point of the story is that drivers with dark skin are (it appears) much more likely to be pulled over in the first place. if the initial infraction isn't worth citing, no big deal Well, no. The whole objection to profiling, whether Hispanic drivers in Atherton or black kids in NYC, is that the cops have no good reason to be stopping them in the first place. This report provides no data on how many red-lig…

Also, if it's totally not racist at all, then why did they stop providing the information as soon as this analysis was put up? That makes them look way more suspicious than they already did.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#36

Post by rdl »

bloopletech wrote: post #31
rdl wrote: post #10

It seems pretty natural that if the serious penalties are for being unlicensed drivers (14602.6 VC, the $1800 thing), and most of the unlicensed people have Hispanic names/are Hispanic (which I think is generally true, in California), most of the people who get serious penalties for being unlicensed drivers will be Hispanic. There's no particular racism there on the part of the Atherton police in that. You have to ha…

So... if being unlicensed is not a sufficient justification for a traffic stop, then why are these drivers being pulled over in the first place? Are you saying that they get pulled over for something else, and it so happens that they are also unlicensed? In that case, why is it only Hispanic drivers being pulled over? Are Hispanics the only ethnic group in the areas north and south that commit traffic infractions?

I'm assuming lots of people get pulled over for various infractions, and the Hispanics among them are the ~only ones who are unlicensed and are thus the ~only ones cited for being unlicensed. Other citation types appear less biased (I just scanned, I didn't do actual analysis, I'm trying to finish my RSA 2014 submissions right now).

There may be profiling in pulling over "old/cheap" cars more for the same violations, but I have a hard time telling if someone is white/hispanic/whatever in another car, particularly from behind. I can identify black vs. white from sides/front in a car, but doing so from behind is quite hard, too. So I am less likely to believe there's racial profiling in who is stopped; the greatest potential for racial discrimination would be in cite vs. not cite on specific violations committed (like, letting white people have a pass on speeding, while citing nonwhite people) after the car is already stopped. I don't think most police would let anyone have a pass on unlicensed/suspended, though, regardless of race (or, in some cities where immigration status prevents being licensed statewide, but the city/local people support undocumented/illegal people, maybe they'd be more likely to give an unlicensed driver who was otherwise not at fault a pass if stopped for something really not his fault like being in a non-at-fault accident.)

Re: Profiling Atherton

#37

Post by helmut_hed »

avichal wrote: post #6

I ended up with renting a mansion in Atherton right off of Fair Oaks for dirt cheap for about a year. If you look at the tickets, a lot of them are on the streets around Fair Oaks since that's also a short path to/from Redwood City and the highway. I would bet a lot of money that the profiling is done based on the type of car you drive and intended to keep people from Redwood City out of Atherton. I drive an older Ci…

Caltrain only stops in Atherton on the weekends because they don't want the poor commuters being able to get in or out of Atherton during the week

FWIW Atherton was one of the least used stations on the Caltrain line, and the nearby Menlo Park and Redwood City stations get very good service. So eliminating service made a good deal of sense. I can't explain why they still stop there on weekends, though...

Re: Profiling Atherton

#38

Post by bloopletech »

rdl wrote: post #36
bloopletech wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... if being unlicensed is not a sufficient justification for a traffic stop, then why are these drivers being pulled over in the first place? Are you saying that they get pulled over for something else, and it so happens that they are also unlicensed? In that case, why is it only Hispanic drivers being pulled over? Are Hispanics the only ethnic group in the areas north and south that commit traffic infractions?

I'm assuming lots of people get pulled over for various infractions, and the Hispanics among them are the ~only ones who are unlicensed and are thus the ~only ones cited for being unlicensed. Other citation types appear less biased (I just scanned, I didn't do actual analysis, I'm trying to finish my RSA 2014 submissions right now). There may be profiling in pulling over "old/cheap" cars more for the same violations,…

Are Hispanic people unlicensed at such a high rate relative to the general population that it would fit this data?

Also,

> I don't think most police would let anyone have a pass on unlicensed/suspended

is a direct contradiction to:

> Even if someone were unlicensed and caught, if you didn't have the cause to stop him for something else, he'd walk on the unlicensed driver charge.

Which you posted above.

[edited to fix bad c+p]

Re: Profiling Atherton

#39

Post by rdl »

bloopletech wrote: post #34
auctiontheory wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the story is that drivers with dark skin are (it appears) much more likely to be pulled over in the first place. if the initial infraction isn't worth citing, no big deal Well, no. The whole objection to profiling, whether Hispanic drivers in Atherton or black kids in NYC, is that the cops have no good reason to be stopping them in the first place. This report provides no data on how many red-lig…

I think I just posted the same thing you did. Also: Strawman: 'Well these people all drive crappy cars with stuff wrong with them' Teardown: Where's all the traffic violations for poor white people? Poor black people? Further, what about all the other kinds of traffic violation (drunk driving etc.)? Are Hispanics the only people who ever do anything wrong on the road?

There are not a lot of poor white or poor black people in RWC/Atherton; it's mainly rich white/asian people and poor hispanic people, in my experience. Poor people are relatively more segregated by race in the Bay Area than I'd expect -- poor white people tend to be in various parts of the East Bay, poor black people in a few specific neighborhoods of SF and EPA and Oakland/Richmond, poor asians in some parts of the South Bay (and maybe Oakland?), poor hispanics in ESJ, parts of the Peninsula, south of Oakland, etc.

It seems like poor people are actually more segregated than rich people here -- aside from the general shortage of rich black people in general, the rich people I see in PA/Piedmont/etc. are a pretty representative mix of white/asian/hispanic/etc.

Re: Profiling Atherton

#40

Post by helmut_hed »

hkmurakami wrote: post #11
prostoalex wrote: post #5

Is it really that mysterious? Middlefield Rd in Atherton feeds into Middlefield Rd in Redwood City, which is a heavily Hispanic neighborhood, with some bodegas carrying no signage in English. Next up - Cupertino police profiling Asian drivers.

except Cupertino itself is now predominantly Asian so they wouldn't be profiling drivers who are more likely than not actual residents :p

presumably that was prostoalex's point
Post reply on HN