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The myth of America's missing software engineers

management.fortune.cnn.com

111–120 of 143 posts

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#111

I used to have dreams of moving out to the valley after I finished school, but after checking, rechecking, and then rechecking again the cost of living out there, I pretty much scrapped the idea. The Bay Area may be a cool place to live, but it's not a 250% housing-cost-increase cool to me. Moreover, the pay doesn't match that housing increase. Forget it. For that price I'll wait for somebody to offer a telecommuting…

> 250% housing-cost-increase cool to me

250%? What city are you comparing to? Are you perhaps comparing to a large town?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might well have been a community before your glorious war dead who "established and preserved a nation" slaughtered them. How exactly is that justification for continuing to treat people born on one side of a line as valuable human beings and those on the other worthless? Is it a moral sunk cost theory -- as long as we've committed all these atrocities in the name of nationalism might as well keep going?

They are certainly communities, and it is the obligation of the governing bodies of their communities to maximize the prosperity of the people in those communities just as it is the obligation of the governing bodies of our community to maximize the prosperity of the people in our community. Inside versus outside isn't theoretical. People in other communities will not come to your defense when you need help, they wil…

Are you really trying to justify genocide on the basis that people who live in a community have no moral obligations to anyone outside their community?

I would have thought that reasoning went out of fashion circa September 30, 1946.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#113
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, don't work for those companies. There's plenty of companies around that actively discourage hero coding by anybody (aside from exceptional circumstances) because it illustrates a deeper flaw in their system.

> Well, don't work for those companies. That's not a solution. That's the issue. Smart people don't work for those companies. Then, said companies turn around and complain that there is a shortage of talent* *willing to work for $80k in the Bay area.

It is actually difficult to find talent, though. The fact that idiots are claiming this for the wrong reasons doesn't mean that smart people can't also think so for the right reasons.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#114
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a tough sell as a policy issue. I'm supposed to be all upset that wages are being depressed from $200,000 to $100,000 for people who happened to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line even though it means opportunities for people to make $100,000 who would otherwise be making $25,000 but happened to be born on the other side of the world? Sorry, far from being upset, that sou…

I don't think you're required to be upset about it. In fact, your honesty is very refreshing. No CEO lobbying for this bill would ever openly state that this program dramatically reduces wages for US citizens, but that they don't care because they view US citizenship as a meaningless invisible line.

So the plan is to appeal to rank nationalism? I suggest any lobbying group that's formed concentrate its ad dollars on Fox News.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are certainly communities, and it is the obligation of the governing bodies of their communities to maximize the prosperity of the people in those communities just as it is the obligation of the governing bodies of our community to maximize the prosperity of the people in our community. Inside versus outside isn't theoretical. People in other communities will not come to your defense when you need help, they wil…

Are you really trying to justify genocide on the basis that people who live in a community have no moral obligations to anyone outside their community? I would have thought that reasoning went out of fashion circa September 30, 1946.

There is an intermediate point between supporting nationalism to the point of genocide and asserting that nationality means absolutely nothing.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#116
post #65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Data notwithstanding, I've done a lot of job interviews for candidates with the right resume and most are not hirable. Software engineering is a field where quality is hugely important.

We share this experience, or as I put it, a majority who "can't program their way out of a paper bag". But that doesn't tell if there are enough candidates out there if the salaries and conditions of work were better. The latter is very possibly a big issue with H-1B employees, seeing as how they've a modern version of indentured servants.

Do you have any insight into why so many "can't program their way out of a paper bag"? Does this go beyond the observation of a bimodal distribution of programming ability and the discouraging results of the McCracken Group research (from the early 2000s on the international inability of CS1 and CS2 students to implement an RPN calculator)? I am seriously curious about this question. If anyone has some insight, please contact me.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#117
post #11

As someone occasionally involved in hiring, the important question isn't whether we have "enough" software engineers. It's easy to fill seats. The question is whether we have "good enough" software engineers. And, as long as we're trying to improve as a company, we'll always want better engineers.

"For higher paying jobs, like computer programmer, software developer, and electronics engineer, Bright found more than one domestic job candidate for every H-1B application."

Wow, so the author thinks you only have to interview 1 person for each job. That's a Polyanna view; reject that statistic and the entire article falls apart.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#118
post #116
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We share this experience, or as I put it, a majority who "can't program their way out of a paper bag". But that doesn't tell if there are enough candidates out there if the salaries and conditions of work were better. The latter is very possibly a big issue with H-1B employees, seeing as how they've a modern version of indentured servants.

Do you have any insight into why so many "can't program their way out of a paper bag"? Does this go beyond the observation of a bimodal distribution of programming ability and the discouraging results of the McCracken Group research (from the early 2000s on the international inability of CS1 and CS2 students to implement an RPN calculator)? I am seriously curious about this question. If anyone has some insight, pleas…

Not particularly.

I can reframe the issue by pointing out that programming is hard, and it's something we've only recently been seriously doing. I analogize it to reading and writing as "we haven't even found the phonetic alphabet" (or at least agreed that Lisp is that :-).

Going further, that means a lot of aspiring programmers have no chance whatsoever of being good programmers, and a lot just fake it. Going back to the writing analogy, perhaps they write prose good enough for an online comment, but they'll never write a competent novel or serious nonfiction book that a publisher might accept.

But still, they view themselves as programmers, and too many outfits don't check to see if they can really program before making a job offer, and often for some time afterwords. Or they otherwise manage to hold onto positions, at least for a while.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#119
post #61
post #23

"It would make sense that an employer would try to offer a lower salary to an employee it helped move to the United States since that employee also gains the benefit of getting sponsored, but the analysis found the opposite." This makes me want to punch the screen. It is ILLEGAL to pay an engineer on an H-1B less than the median salary for that position, precisely because people were worried that foreign labour would…

No, it isn't illegal. By 'that position' do you mean the position being replaced, or the new position created in order to hire the H1B? And are you taking account of the market price of the additional skills that employee brings, or is that not relevant? So here's just one loophole: companies find a lower-paid title, and base the 'prevailing wage' on beginning level employees. Now that the 'prevailing wage' is set, t…

I absolutely can.

I arrived in this country on an H-1B, and then I co-founded a company where I repeatedly examined the option of hiring employees on H-1Bs. It never, ever made sense to hire a foreign employee if there was a local one available, even though I have absolutely no bias towards hiring American citizens.

The only reason you'd hire an H-1B is if you were out of qualified American engineers, because it is so much harder to hire foreigners.

The chief users of H-1Bs are big, boring companies that can't attract local talent at any price. And then they can't hang on to them, thanks to the American Competitiveness in the 21st Century act, which lets H-1B holders switch companies if they get a better offer. The purpose of the law was to prevent companies using immigration status to "trap" employees at lower wage. Because the immigration system thought of that problem.

The argument that for the same price, you get a more-qualified applicant for a given lower-skilled position doesn't fly, because

a) the cost of an H-1B is far more than their salary; the legal fees run into tens of thousands of dollars before you even consider relocation. Foreign workers are much more expensive.

b) the pool of people willing to up and relocate from a foreign country to the US just isn't that big; the same market that applies to American engineers applies to foreign ones, and they are just as demanding.

c) once in America, the H-1B holders don't need to stick around if their salary is crappy, and they don't. See above.

The fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of people have about talent immigration is that they think there are hordes of unwashed foreigners beating down the doors to get in. They're not. Most people stay where they are. That's why you have to make it easier for them to get in, because we need them more than they need us.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#120
post #15

My company (which, according to Glassdoor, is paying above-average tech salaries) recently started offering ~$100 per lead for software engineering referrals. If the person ends up being hired, their referrer also gets a ~$2000 bonus. A recruiting firm that can truly locate these missing engineers would be making a killing in the marketplace right now.

Seems like you could make some easy money by going to the nearest college and gathering engineering students email addresses.

That's a thing already. Related: It's really annoying. Nobody does it just to genuinely help you - you get spammed halfway to hell. Oh, and maybe a connection or two.
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