The myth of America's missing software engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#101

Post by aryastark » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #69

aryastark wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This is how backwards our industry is. It wants to pay peanuts for rockstar coders, but doesn't realize that no one is both dumb enough to work for snack food Tuesdays and smart enough to have a PhD in CS. The problem is exasperated by these companies treating engineers like children. "Toss them another Mt. Dew, and they'll work another all-nighter." With all the VC and buyout money out there, a true rockstar is…

Well, don't work for those companies. There's plenty of companies around that actively discourage hero coding by anybody (aside from exceptional circumstances) because it illustrates a deeper flaw in their system.

> Well, don't work for those companies.

That's not a solution. That's the issue. Smart people don't work for those companies. Then, said companies turn around and complain that there is a shortage of talent*

*willing to work for $80k in the Bay area.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#102

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:46 PM UTC

c0ldfusion wrote: post #95

rayiner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should post for reference: At Goldman/JPM/MS, the going rate (inclusive of bonus) right now seems to be: 100-150k for analysts (1-3 years out of undergraduate); 200-300k for associates (3-5 years out); 300-500k for VPs (6-8 years out); 500k+ for MDs (8+ years out) And we're not talking about the guys bringing in a billion dollars as traders. This is for the rank-and-file.

There is no way an associate in operations makes 200k and frankly that seems a bit high for engineers as well. Are you speaking in general and is your source anecdotal? Also _most_ people do not ever make MD, let alone in 9 years.

The salaries are for investment banking and sales & trading. Not the same sort of job, obviously, but when Facebook and Google head to Stanford to do recruiting, these are the other options those kids are considering.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#103

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:46 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #96

rayiner wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line It's not an invisible line. It's a line that was defended and delineated by the blood of people who wanted to establish and preserve a nation.

I think you mean the blood of the people who were already living here. Isn't it enough that nationalism killed 100+m people in the 20th century, do we really need to have it hanging around our neck in the 21st?

What you derisively call "people who were already living here" other people might call a "community."

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#104

Post by geebee » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:48 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #97

geebee wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how this could be the case. If a company pays its employees the prevailing wage, why would it be obligated to pay an H1B hire at the 90%ile?

Either the prevailing wage paid by all companies in the area, or the actual wage paid to comparable employees in that actual company.

Unfortunately, I still don't understand your argument.

If a company currently pays 100K for a senior software engineer, the median for the position is 100K, and the 90%ile for the industy is 180, is the company obligated to pay 180K to an H1B for this role?

My understanding is that it is not, that 100K would meet the prevailing wage requirements.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#105

Post by c0ldfusion » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:48 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #102

c0ldfusion wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way an associate in operations makes 200k and frankly that seems a bit high for engineers as well. Are you speaking in general and is your source anecdotal? Also _most_ people do not ever make MD, let alone in 9 years.

The salaries are for investment banking and sales & trading. Not the same sort of job, obviously, but when Facebook and Google head to Stanford to do recruiting, these are the other options those kids are considering.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm still curious as to what your source is. In light of the current regulatory environment, do you think there is still sizable demand for quantitative professionals on Wall St?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#106

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #103

bradleyjg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean the blood of the people who were already living here. Isn't it enough that nationalism killed 100+m people in the 20th century, do we really need to have it hanging around our neck in the 21st?

What you derisively call "people who were already living here" other people might call a "community."

They might well have been a community before your glorious war dead who "established and preserved a nation" slaughtered them.

How exactly is that justification for continuing to treat people born on one side of a line as valuable human beings and those on the other worthless? Is it a moral sunk cost theory -- as long as we've committed all these atrocities in the name of nationalism might as well keep going?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#107

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #99

bradleyjg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean the blood of the people who were already living here. Isn't it enough that nationalism killed 100+m people in the 20th century, do we really need to have it hanging around our neck in the 21st?

So how much of your income would you like to part with in order to give the children of rural Indian farmers access to the same education as European children get?

Well I'm not European, but I'd be willing to pay the same amount as I'm willing to pay for the children of rural Arkansas farmers. Which is to say nothing at all. But I'd gladly hire either one if they could do the job.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#108

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:56 PM UTC

c0ldfusion wrote: post #105

rayiner wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salaries are for investment banking and sales & trading. Not the same sort of job, obviously, but when Facebook and Google head to Stanford to do recruiting, these are the other options those kids are considering.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm still curious as to what your source is. In light of the current regulatory environment, do you think there is still sizable demand for quantitative professionals on Wall St?

I have family/friends who are in the industry. Re: demand, it's size-able, and quantitative skills are becoming more, not less, important. To paint with very broad brushes, the recruiting emphasis on Wall Street has shifted towards math/science majors at the top of their class at top schools. There are less opportunities out there to make money, so the value of precise analysis has really gone up. Also, given the current regulatory environment, the value of risk management, which is intensely quantitative, has gone up.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#109

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:57 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #104

bradleyjg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either the prevailing wage paid by all companies in the area, or the actual wage paid to comparable employees in that actual company.

Unfortunately, I still don't understand your argument. If a company currently pays 100K for a senior software engineer, the median for the position is 100K, and the 90%ile for the industy is 180, is the company obligated to pay 180K to an H1B for this role? My understanding is that it is not, that 100K would meet the prevailing wage requirements.

I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood your point. No, 100k would work. But if the industry median were 100k and but the company in question paid US workers in that title 150k, they'd have to pay 150k.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#110

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 9:00 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #106

rayiner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you derisively call "people who were already living here" other people might call a "community."

They might well have been a community before your glorious war dead who "established and preserved a nation" slaughtered them. How exactly is that justification for continuing to treat people born on one side of a line as valuable human beings and those on the other worthless? Is it a moral sunk cost theory -- as long as we've committed all these atrocities in the name of nationalism might as well keep going?

They are certainly communities, and it is the obligation of the governing bodies of their communities to maximize the prosperity of the people in those communities just as it is the obligation of the governing bodies of our community to maximize the prosperity of the people in our community.

Inside versus outside isn't theoretical. People in other communities will not come to your defense when you need help, they will not perpetuate your culture and values, and they are not part of the body politic that animates your democracy.