The myth of America's missing software engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#91

Post by codex » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:27 PM UTC

An argument I've never seen made regarding H1B software engineer hiring: is better for the entire county in the long term for the US to import as many good software engineers as it can, or is it better to restrict supply?

If any good software engineer were allowed carte blanche emigration to the US, the US would have more of the world's top engineering talent, which may be a good thing overall even if it depresses wages. On the other hand, high wages may encourage more young US citizens to go into computer science--assuming they can hack it.

I wonder if this is just another nature vs nurture debate. If you presume that the world's supply of "smart people" is fixed, you want to import all of them and get them to procreate in the US. If you assume intelligence is growable, you want to focus on growing it domestically.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#92

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:30 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #73

jcnnghm wrote: post #5

I posted this in response to a comment the last time this came up. That article was killed, so I'm reposting: Whereas the reason there are open positions for programmers at high tech companies is that these companies want star programmers Maybe they should try paying like stars. What percentage of engineers that aren't founders or within the first five employees make over $300,000 a year? The money is in Silicon Vall…

This is really a tough sell as a policy issue. I'm supposed to be all upset that wages are being depressed from $200,000 to $100,000 for people who happened to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line even though it means opportunities for people to make $100,000 who would otherwise be making $25,000 but happened to be born on the other side of the world? Sorry, far from being upset, that sou…

> to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line

It's not an invisible line. It's a line that was defended and delineated by the blood of people who wanted to establish and preserve a nation.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#93

Post by fader » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:31 PM UTC

BillyMaize wrote: post #51

bluedino wrote: post #17

"Qualified applicants" takes on a different meaning if you're looking for someone to crank out a CRUD app or write operating system kernels. For example, we've been looking for an entry-level web developer for almost a year. They actually put "computer science degree" and "2 years experience" on the job ad. We found a pretty smart kid with an associates that blew the interview by mentioning he kept up with industry t…

Entry level with two years of experience?? I'd hope that isn't very strict or basically no one would be able to apply for the job meeting the requirements unless internships count, and even then you usually get like 1.5 years of experience that way.

"Entry level" in the US now means 3-5 years of experience. You're expected to work those years for free (as an "intern") to get the experience.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#94

Post by geebee » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:33 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #82

geebee wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that preventing a wage increase is, over time, no different from undercutting wages. Typically, a shortage would spur an increase in wages - so allowing people to pay only the "prevailing" wage could still end up suppressing wage growth. One way around this would be to set a higher pay standard for H1B hires (perhaps requiring pay at the 90ile%+ level for the position, or creating a "prevailing wage + 25…

Employers have to pay the industry prevailing wage or the wage actually paid to comparable US national employees. So the law already does what you are suggesting.

I don't understand how this could be the case. If a company pays its employees the prevailing wage, why would it be obligated to pay an H1B hire at the 90%ile?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#95

Post by c0ldfusion » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #90

jcnnghm wrote: post #5

I posted this in response to a comment the last time this came up. That article was killed, so I'm reposting: Whereas the reason there are open positions for programmers at high tech companies is that these companies want star programmers Maybe they should try paying like stars. What percentage of engineers that aren't founders or within the first five employees make over $300,000 a year? The money is in Silicon Vall…

I should post for reference: At Goldman/JPM/MS, the going rate (inclusive of bonus) right now seems to be: 100-150k for analysts (1-3 years out of undergraduate); 200-300k for associates (3-5 years out); 300-500k for VPs (6-8 years out); 500k+ for MDs (8+ years out) And we're not talking about the guys bringing in a billion dollars as traders. This is for the rank-and-file.

There is no way an associate in operations makes 200k and frankly that seems a bit high for engineers as well. Are you speaking in general and is your source anecdotal?

Also _most_ people do not ever make MD, let alone in 9 years.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#96

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #92

bradleyjg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a tough sell as a policy issue. I'm supposed to be all upset that wages are being depressed from $200,000 to $100,000 for people who happened to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line even though it means opportunities for people to make $100,000 who would otherwise be making $25,000 but happened to be born on the other side of the world? Sorry, far from being upset, that sou…

> to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line It's not an invisible line. It's a line that was defended and delineated by the blood of people who wanted to establish and preserve a nation.

I think you mean the blood of the people who were already living here.

Isn't it enough that nationalism killed 100+m people in the 20th century, do we really need to have it hanging around our neck in the 21st?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#97

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:42 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #94

bradleyjg wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers have to pay the industry prevailing wage or the wage actually paid to comparable US national employees. So the law already does what you are suggesting.

I don't understand how this could be the case. If a company pays its employees the prevailing wage, why would it be obligated to pay an H1B hire at the 90%ile?

Either the prevailing wage paid by all companies in the area, or the actual wage paid to comparable employees in that actual company.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#98

Post by epoxyhockey » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:43 PM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #79

epoxyhockey wrote: post #56

It's always an eye opener to look up companies at http://www.h1bwage.com/ and compare their salaries. Plenty of SF companies hire 'senior software engineers' in the range of 78K.

Base salary is almost meaningless, you have to consider total comp. You'll see the same seemingly low wages at finance firms that have h1b visa's, but in reality those people are making significantly more.

We're talking about software engineers here. Base salary is almost meaningless in most finance and some legal firms, but not at a 30-person software consulting firm.

I looked up companies that I once worked for on h1bwage and I know for a fact that my H1B co-workers were not enjoying large bonuses.

A visa application listing a bay area senior s/w engineer prevailing wage of 78K should be outright rejected. Yet, it was accepted.

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#99

Post by tptacek » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #96

rayiner wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line It's not an invisible line. It's a line that was defended and delineated by the blood of people who wanted to establish and preserve a nation.

I think you mean the blood of the people who were already living here. Isn't it enough that nationalism killed 100+m people in the 20th century, do we really need to have it hanging around our neck in the 21st?

So how much of your income would you like to part with in order to give the children of rural Indian farmers access to the same education as European children get?

Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers

#100

Post by geebee » Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #73

jcnnghm wrote: post #5

I posted this in response to a comment the last time this came up. That article was killed, so I'm reposting: Whereas the reason there are open positions for programmers at high tech companies is that these companies want star programmers Maybe they should try paying like stars. What percentage of engineers that aren't founders or within the first five employees make over $300,000 a year? The money is in Silicon Vall…

This is really a tough sell as a policy issue. I'm supposed to be all upset that wages are being depressed from $200,000 to $100,000 for people who happened to have fallen out of their mothers on one side of an invisible line even though it means opportunities for people to make $100,000 who would otherwise be making $25,000 but happened to be born on the other side of the world? Sorry, far from being upset, that sou…

I don't think you're required to be upset about it. In fact, your honesty is very refreshing. No CEO lobbying for this bill would ever openly state that this program dramatically reduces wages for US citizens, but that they don't care because they view US citizenship as a meaningless invisible line.