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Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

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Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#171

Post by gwern »

cowsandmilk wrote: post #150
biero wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's up to Goldman (and the terms of the license). It is really up to the license, Goldman either selected licenses where they could legally avoid sending upstream changes or planned to violate the law in secrecy. If they did the latter on just one license, then he should qualify as a whistle blower.

what common open source licenses would require them to send changes upstream? Or really, what licenses would require them to release the modified code to the public? GPL requires you to make source code available to anyone who you distribute the program to. If you're just putting code on servers, there's no obligation. Even if you distribute internally, you usually are technically distributing to the company for inst…

> Even the AGPL, designed to be viral for web applications, requires the operator of the server to make the code available to users of the server. Assuming all users were Goldman Sachs employees, I don't see any legal obligation for them to contribute back to the community.

Given that GS is a multi-billion global behemoth which runs a bewildering array of computerized services with an even larger array of customers, I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't have some API or client functionality which would trigger the AGPL if they included AGPL'd code in it.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#172

Post by Dylan16807 »

biero wrote: post #157
cowsandmilk wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what common open source licenses would require them to send changes upstream? Or really, what licenses would require them to release the modified code to the public? GPL requires you to make source code available to anyone who you distribute the program to. If you're just putting code on servers, there's no obligation. Even if you distribute internally, you usually are technically distributing to the company for inst…

Sorry to spread FUD, I was under the impression that non-OSI compliant licenses sometimes made this requirement, but I can't find any actual examples so maybe it was an overly cautious question I was always answering 'no' to to get import approval.

Even if such a license existed, it's still the responsibility of the derivative code's owner to comply. If they refuse, then they can be sued, but their code can only be released under the license by their deliberate action.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#173

Post by kaonashi »

nohuck13 wrote: post #120

I was working at one of the rival HFT's mentioned in the article when all this went down. I had some thoughts. -It's never ok to take proprietary code with you after quitting. I don't know anybody that would have thought that was OK, especially with the amount of money people were making off this IP in 2008. Of course that's true in any industry, but especially in trading. -That said, you can't just walk out the door…

What does it mean exactly to 'take proprietary code'? You mean he had a copy on his laptop so he could work from home? Isn't that what most of us do?

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#174

Post by smm2000 »

yogo wrote: post #141
imsofuture wrote: post #134

While stupidity isn't a crime, people like Serge manage to find their way around that obstacle. It's pretty obvious he didn't have any malicious or illegal intent, but he definitely followed the checklist of 'things not to do when leaving a job'. Emailing yourself code? Seriously? The whole thing is a travesty, but he walked right into it.

That was my impression too. For someone that smart in a technical field, some things just seemed a little to casual or didn't make much sense. Deleting your bash history because there might be passwords in it? I generally give the benefit of the doubt to the guy in his position--maybe he was in a hurry or got comfortable being one of the chosen few super users--but, you have to think wtf. At a company like that where…

I have passwords in my bash history - namely mysql passwords.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#175

Post by dustingetz »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #121
waffle_ss wrote: post #20

On the night of the arrest—without an arrest warrant—Serge waived his right to call a lawyer. He phoned his wife and told her what had happened and that a bunch of F.B.I. agents were on the way to their home to seize their computers, and to please let them in—though they had no search warrant, either. Then he sat down and politely tried to clear up the F.B.I. agent's confusion. "He was completely not interested in th…

The best answer to the question "Can I ask you a few questions?" is "Sure! Just give me your card and I'll have my attorney set something up." Gives them nowhere to go but home.

This is far too oversimplified to be the third comment I read in this thread, sorry.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#176

Post by gohrt »

gamblor956 wrote: post #139
sneak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That video is right up there with knowing about 83b elections as some of the most valuable information one can possibly possess. I rewatch it annually and send out mass emails to all my friends and family when I do reminding them to do so as well.

Tell that to all the Zynga employees who made 83(b) elections and are now underwater! 83(b) entails being taxed on the value of stock/options when purchased/received (i.e., as compensation), rather than when vested or when exercised. It's great if the value of the stock increases, but you're substantially worse off economically (taking the time value of money into account) if the value of the stock decreases.

What valuation did those underwater employees get?

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#177

Post by eshvk »

ionforce wrote: post #58
cgshaw wrote: post #15

As an attorney and someone moderately interested in politics, it's becoming more and more clear that technical literacy is going to play a huge role in law and policy. We desperately need more politicians, bureaucrats and law enforcement who at least have some basic technical knowledge. Empathy is the only way to prevent stuff like this.

Usually people who attain technical knowledge are the same type to avoid politics. Politics is a "soft" game of imperfections, where as technical knowledge is the opposite. Cold, hard, objective. What incentive is there for technically-equipped folk to deal with the imperfections and heartache of interacting with non-technical folk than to take a white collar job amongst other technically-minded folk?

> technical knowledge is the opposite. Cold, hard, objective.

Life isn't that black or white. Companies run on soft games, the world, your product succeeds not because of "cold, hard, objective" amazing technical design but due to soft irrational people. I'd argue that there are enough people in tech well versed in the soft game for money to be made.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#178

Post by gohrt »

Symmetry wrote: post #111
clicks wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should have taken him to a side and told him to go watch 12 Angry Men when he gets home.

12 Angry Men might, perhaps, not be the best example. http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2012/11/odds-again-ba... EDIT: Actually, this is the one I should have linked to: http://www.avclub.com/articles/did-12-angry-men-get-it-wrong...

The AV club article

assumes that people never lie or are unreliable witnesses, even though the movie presents clear evidence to the contrary (and this is well known in the real world),

assumes that the police conduct a thorough investigation instead of railroading a suspect who fits their prejudicial profile,

and assumes things (like the knife) are uncommon because they are foreign to himself, though they may be quite popular in other social circles.

That's exactly the point of the movie, and the author completely missed it.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#179

Post by brianpgordon »

melling wrote: post #18

In case people aren't clear on this. He worked in an industry that takes this sort of thing very seriously. He shouldn't have even been trying to download open source from work. You don't email stuff home to work on it, for example.

The question isn't whether Sergey did something he shouldn't have. It's whether Goldman and the government overstepped in prosecuting him.

Being sentenced to 8 years in prison based on wildly ill-informed testimony is clearly not a reasonable response.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#180

Post by Daniel_Newby »

cgshaw wrote: post #15

As an attorney and someone moderately interested in politics, it's becoming more and more clear that technical literacy is going to play a huge role in law and policy. We desperately need more politicians, bureaucrats and law enforcement who at least have some basic technical knowledge. Empathy is the only way to prevent stuff like this.

This was not a case of ignorance or lack of empathy. The system worked as intended: the tallest poppy was cut down, his downfall was a PR victory for someone's reappointment campaign, and by extension someone else's reelection.

Technical knowledge would merely give them Google level efficiency at shafting their victims.

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