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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#181

Post by tanzam75 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #78

This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs. On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy. On the negative side: - Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the arti…

I think you're off by a factor of 1000. I get 980 terawatt-hours of energy.

If, as you say, 971 GWh is equivalent to 6% of total energy usage, then 980 TWh is 6000% total energy usage. Of course, you don't get 100% efficiency in incineration, but an oversupply of 60x leaves a lot of room for inefficiency.

Here's my calculation. I've used scientific notation to reduce the possibility of order-of-magnitude errors:

> 230 million tons Avoirdupois = 2.3e8 tons

> 2.3e8 tons * 2e3 pounds/ton = 4.6e11 pounds

> 4.6e11 pounds * 0.45 kg/pound = 2.07e11 kg

> 2.07e11 kg * 1000 g/kg = 2.07e14 g

> 2.07e14 g * 17 kJ/g for carbohydrates = 3.52e15 kJ

> 3.52e15 kJ * 2.78e-4 kWh/kJ = 9.8e11 kWh

That's 980 billion kWh, or 980 million MWh, or 980 thousand GWh, or 980 TWh.

I wonder if maybe you're getting nutrition Calories (uppercase) confused with gram calories (lowercase). Nutrition Calories are actually kilocalories!!! If you forgot to multiply by 1000 to account for this, then that would explain your result.

In Europe, nutrition labels are listed in kilojoules. This eliminates the confusion over calories.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#182

Post by dalke »

jpadkins wrote: post #175
purplelobster wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just call the American poor "some of the poorest people on earth?" Or were you talking about immigrants? One town in Sweden (Södertälje) has received more Iraqi refugees alone than all of the US has, the country that actually started the war. Sweden's immigrants are actually some of the poorest people on earth, mainly refugees of war and people who would be prosecuted/killed if they returned to their home cou…

I was referring to the large amount of asian, mexican and central american people who live in SF. SF is known as an amnesty city (along with NYC, LA and Chicago). What is the racial/ethnic diversity of Sweden? Showing stats on high immigration where the top of list is finnland, germany, denmark, etc. It's great sweden takes refugee's, but that is easy if they are a tiny fraction of the population. What percentage of…

Your categories (being the US census categories) are, of course, US-centric so cannot be directly compared to other countries. That is, in the Swedish context, why should Swedes and Iraqis both be categorized as "white" while Chileans are in their own category of "Hispanic or Latino"?

For some hard numbers, "15% of the [Swedish] population was born abroad, 5% of the population was born in Sweden to two parents born abroad, and another 7% was born in Sweden to one parent born abroad. Resulting in 27% of the Swedish population being of at least partly foreign descent." (Wikipedia for Immigration_to_Sweden#Current_population_of_immigrants_and_their_descendants . That also shows the complete breakdown, with Iraq, Bosnia, former Yugoslavia, and Iran in positions #2-5, after Finland.)

Compare that to the US: "According to the Census Bureau's 2009 American Community Survey, the US immigrant population was 38,517,234, or 12.5 percent of the total US population." (http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=8... )

12.5% for the US is less than 15% for Sweden.

It's hard to compare the Swedish immigration numbers to the ones in the link you gave, which talks about ethnicity in San Francisco, because the Swedish government tracks nationality, not ethnicity.

It's also difficult to compare San Francisco, which has a higher than average diversity in the US, with all of Sweden. For example, in Botkyrka Municipality near Stockholm nearly half the population has at least one parent born in another country, and that rises to 65% in one of its neighborhoods; a neighborhood where 26% of the neighborhood is a foreign national.

By comparison, that number is 30% (instead of 26%) for the SF Bay Area. However, even then it's not a good comparison because I picked a single neighborhood of 82k people in Sweden, against the Bay Area, which has a population of 7.15 million. The entirety of Sweden is only 9.5 million people.

So yes, you can easily say that San Francisco is a very culturally diverse city. No one disagrees with you.

However, purplelobster's point was that Sweden currently, and over the last two decades, takes in a lot of refugees on a per-capita basis, and even more than the US does - a fact which is not in dispute.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#183

Post by abalone »

batiste wrote: post #167
abalone wrote: post #125

The dirty secret here is CO2 emissions. Everything Sweden does to cut down waste to begin with is awesome. But of course you're going to run out of trash if you BURN EVERYTHING LEFT. What marks this as a puff piece is the lack of honesty around CO2. The only place they mention it is in comparing it to.. generating the same amount of power from burning oil. It is spun as a way to reduce CO2, because look at all the oi…

"A proper comparison would pit burning trash against renewable energy sources that don't produce greenhouse gases" Not really, because carbon neutral renewable energy usable for heating are not plentiful. AFAIK there is only: Sustainable wood pelet burning with particles filters, Heat pumps. And there is contestations about heat pumps being a green energy source http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/08/heat…

Not plentiful? Iceland does most of their district heating with geothermal. Their total energy production is over 80% renewables.

Of course it's a proper comparison. Even if heat pumps have drawbacks, so does burning trash. You compare the two.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#184

Post by chestnut-tree »

gvr wrote: post #67
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

Regarding schools: the "Free Schools" are quite unusual, almost all universities and certainly the top ones are run by the state and free, and people are accepted based on academic merit. I went to arguably the best engineering physics program in Sweden; it was free, and they paid me a $250 stipend per month, the rest of money needed to live was borrowed at a low rate. It is true that Sweden has cut services a lot in…

"Regarding schools: the "Free Schools" are quite unusual..."

In the UK, the right-wing Education Minister, Michael Gove, is a particularly enthusiastic proponent of "free schoools" and has been strongly influenced by the Swedish free school model. In fact, the 2010 Conservative election manifesto even included a page praising the Swedish free school policy.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#185

Post by dredmorbius »

tanzam75 wrote: post #181
dredmorbius wrote: post #78

This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs. On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy. On the negative side: - Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the arti…

I think you're off by a factor of 1000. I get 980 terawatt -hours of energy. If, as you say, 971 GWh is equivalent to 6% of total energy usage, then 980 TWh is 6000% total energy usage. Of course, you don't get 100% efficiency in incineration, but an oversupply of 60x leaves a lot of room for inefficiency. Here's my calculation. I've used scientific notation to reduce the possibility of order-of-magnitude errors: > 2…

I'll double-check my math, but suspect my numbers are closer to the truth.

Keep in mind that you're also limited by heat-engine efficiencies. I need to double-check if steam turbines are governed by Carnot cycle (35% max efficiency) or others, but that's another factor to keep in mind.

And yes, the calorie/kilocalorie distinction is important ;-)

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#186

Post by dredmorbius »

vidarh wrote: post #154
dredmorbius wrote: post #78

This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs. On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy. On the negative side: - Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the arti…

So essentially, waste to energy should be seen primarily as a way to reduce the waste problem, not as a way to produce energy. The energy is just a nice side effect that helps to make it attractive to reduce landfill usage. So it still serves a useful purpose. It's just not going to solve our energy issues.

That's pretty much my stance.

And for some countries,say, India, which has tremendous issues with trash and a severe energy shortage, this might be useful. If the logistics, pollution, and wastestream segregation issues can be worked out.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#187

Post by jpttsn »

fetbaffe wrote: post #169
lmm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not anyone can - only those who can get the grades. And while grades are an imperfect measure of academic merit they're the best one we have.

For a long time we have had a public policy that anyone can go to higher education if they want to and in combination with different labor programs that pushes unemployed and under skilled to universities, that leads to undermining academic merits to a point where its not left. And that we granted every small education institution with the status of university. So to sum up: the goal of "free" education is to make hi…

I gather you're unhappy about the falling demand for a degree in teaching, but the whole argument you're describing is politicised and unsupported. The article suggests there's low demand for a degree in teaching; extending that to "academic merits does not matter" is a crazy stretch.

This link shows statistics for people accepted into higher education for this fall semester: http://statistik.vhs.se

Both in the design of the system and in its actual results, it's clear that academic merit matters more than any other factor.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#188

Post by jpttsn »

theorique wrote: post #163
rotskoff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroa…

It's definitely not homogenous. It's getting "culturally enriched" by Somali Muslim "refugees" over time. The enrichment includes street harassment of Swedish women, no-go enclaves of illegal immigrants, increased rape rates, female genital mutilation, and other nice things. If you get an ethnic Swede drunk and ask him about third world immigration and its effect on his nation, be prepared for an eye opener!

Much like the internet at large is getting culturally enriched by trolls from flashback. Is it really necessary to bring a conversation about recycling down to this level?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#189

Post by Ma8ee »

theorique wrote: post #163
rotskoff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroa…

It's definitely not homogenous. It's getting "culturally enriched" by Somali Muslim "refugees" over time. The enrichment includes street harassment of Swedish women, no-go enclaves of illegal immigrants, increased rape rates, female genital mutilation, and other nice things. If you get an ethnic Swede drunk and ask him about third world immigration and its effect on his nation, be prepared for an eye opener!

I'm an ethnic Swede and I hope Internet anonymity is a sufficient substitute for being drunk. I don't mind the immigrants. I think the overall effect on the nation is positive.

And I'm fed up with stupid racists that think that they just say what everyone really thinks. You don't represent us. We think you are stupid and ignorant.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#190

Post by tanzam75 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #185
tanzam75 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're off by a factor of 1000. I get 980 terawatt -hours of energy. If, as you say, 971 GWh is equivalent to 6% of total energy usage, then 980 TWh is 6000% total energy usage. Of course, you don't get 100% efficiency in incineration, but an oversupply of 60x leaves a lot of room for inefficiency. Here's my calculation. I've used scientific notation to reduce the possibility of order-of-magnitude errors: > 2…

I'll double-check my math, but suspect my numbers are closer to the truth. Keep in mind that you're also limited by heat-engine efficiencies. I need to double-check if steam turbines are governed by Carnot cycle (35% max efficiency) or others, but that's another factor to keep in mind. And yes, the calorie/kilocalorie distinction is important ;-)

If you've got 6000% the required energy, then 35% efficiency is not of major concern.

Three orders of magnitude makes a world of difference.

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