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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#161

Post by pessimizer »

rotskoff wrote: post #156
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroa…

It's the standard racial theory of Scandinavian social order aka 'We would be like them, except better, if it weren't for those stupid, violent, harmony-disrupting minorities.'

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#162

Post by pessimizer »

roel_v wrote: post #145
millstone wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does requiring people to sort their trash actually work? What sort of feedback and enforcement is in place? Where I live in California, we are given a large recyclables bin and a small trash bin, with the option to pay more for a larger trash bin. This sounds like an incentive to recycle, but it's a perverse one. If I were to just put all my trash in the recycle bin, there would be no consequences at all for me, beca…

"Does requiring people to sort their trash actually work? What sort of feedback and enforcement is in place?" No it doesn't. I live in so-called 'progressive' Holland where separate waste collection has been done for years. It's not efficient now any more (in 2013 we have better waste separation methods as was had in the 1990's) but people have become conditioned to 'separating waste = green' that it's hard to revers…

That sounds like it is working, but you don't like it.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#163

Post by theorique »

rotskoff wrote: post #156
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroa…

It's definitely not homogenous. It's getting "culturally enriched" by Somali Muslim "refugees" over time. The enrichment includes street harassment of Swedish women, no-go enclaves of illegal immigrants, increased rape rates, female genital mutilation, and other nice things.

If you get an ethnic Swede drunk and ask him about third world immigration and its effect on his nation, be prepared for an eye opener!

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#164

Post by pessimizer »

smcl wrote: post #147
briandear wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't defend the Vietnam War, however generalizing the bunch innocents is a bit daft. The US gets criticized for torture yet the US version of torture compared in no way to the torture perpetuated by that 'bunch of innocents.' Let's not even get into that 'peaceful' Communist group just across te border known as the Khmer Rouge. It's stylish to be a Che Guevara-shirt wearing anti-American granola eating hippy, yet…

Your post could've done without the first paragraph - the "I prefer that we kept all politics off Hacker News" was sufficient without the over-the-top generalisations like "anti-American granola eating hippy".

Also the conviction of the North Vietnamese and Che Guevara of the crimes of the Khmer Rouge.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#165

Post by pessimizer »

jpttsn wrote: post #143
mhb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

Equating these uses of "force" is an almost troll-like stretch.

It's a standard libertarian scowl of disapproval.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#166

Post by roel_v »

pessimizer wrote: post #162
roel_v wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does requiring people to sort their trash actually work? What sort of feedback and enforcement is in place?" No it doesn't. I live in so-called 'progressive' Holland where separate waste collection has been done for years. It's not efficient now any more (in 2013 we have better waste separation methods as was had in the 1990's) but people have become conditioned to 'separating waste = green' that it's hard to revers…

That sounds like it is working, but you don't like it.

Oh sorry I was making another point than what was being asked. Yes it works, but what I am arguing is that it isn't the most efficient way. I do like it in the sense that it was the only thing we had for the last 20 years, and I obviously support separating waste (be it at the consumer level or centralized) for environmental purposes, but it's hard to tell what (in hindsight) was best: that we had separation at consumer for the last 20 years, but that we will have to live with a more inefficient system for the next decade(s); or that we would have postponed separate collection 20 years ago until let's say 10 or 5 years ago, and started with the more efficient (centralized) separation system.

It's an interesting question, and very difficult to answer. Like climate studies, you'd need to calculate so many side effects, that your answer might be different depending on the context you take into account. I've discussed this topic quite extensively with colleagues in urban planning and environmental sciences in countries across the world, but nobody knows (obviously) and people's preferences tend to align with what they have or have worked on. Personally I tend towards the automated / technology solutions (i.e., centralized), but I can't tell if that's because of a cognitive bias or from an increased ability in estimating these sort of things from experience, so that basically nullifies my opinion, too.

It's water under the bridge anyway.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#167

Post by batiste »

abalone wrote: post #125

The dirty secret here is CO2 emissions. Everything Sweden does to cut down waste to begin with is awesome. But of course you're going to run out of trash if you BURN EVERYTHING LEFT. What marks this as a puff piece is the lack of honesty around CO2. The only place they mention it is in comparing it to.. generating the same amount of power from burning oil. It is spun as a way to reduce CO2, because look at all the oi…

"A proper comparison would pit burning trash against renewable energy sources that don't produce greenhouse gases"

Not really, because carbon neutral renewable energy usable for heating are not plentiful. AFAIK there is only: Sustainable wood pelet burning with particles filters, Heat pumps.

And there is contestations about heat pumps being a green energy source http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/08/heat-pump...

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#168

Post by ziggamon »

theorique wrote: post #163
rotskoff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroa…

It's definitely not homogenous. It's getting "culturally enriched" by Somali Muslim "refugees" over time. The enrichment includes street harassment of Swedish women, no-go enclaves of illegal immigrants, increased rape rates, female genital mutilation, and other nice things. If you get an ethnic Swede drunk and ask him about third world immigration and its effect on his nation, be prepared for an eye opener!

Oh, and there's lots of racism too, as represented here. We even have a party in the parliament that represents opinions like that.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#169

Post by fetbaffe »

lmm wrote: post #159
fetbaffe wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'm saying that is not based on academic merit when anyone can attend.

Not anyone can - only those who can get the grades. And while grades are an imperfect measure of academic merit they're the best one we have.

For a long time we have had a public policy that anyone can go to higher education if they want to and in combination with different labor programs that pushes unemployed and under skilled to universities, that leads to undermining academic merits to a point where its not left.

And that we granted every small education institution with the status of university.

So to sum up: the goal of "free" education is to make higher education available for more people. This will lead to lowering of standards of already existing programs because more will attend (normal distribution of skill) and in the universities self interest a majority will pass because universities is paid per graduated student.

And with a gradual lowering of standards this opens up for unqualified students to attend, especially in combination with government programs.

Ergo academic merits does not matter.

In Swedish Almost anyone can be a teacher http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/nastan-vem-som-helst-kan-bl...

This is now norm on many programs at the Swedish universities.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#170

Post by theorique »

ziggamon wrote: post #168
theorique wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not homogenous. It's getting "culturally enriched" by Somali Muslim "refugees" over time. The enrichment includes street harassment of Swedish women, no-go enclaves of illegal immigrants, increased rape rates, female genital mutilation, and other nice things. If you get an ethnic Swede drunk and ask him about third world immigration and its effect on his nation, be prepared for an eye opener!

Oh, and there's lots of racism too, as represented here. We even have a party in the parliament that represents opinions like that.

Yeah, nationalist / nativist parties seem to be part and parcel of the European nations - e.g. Front National in France, PVV in Netherlands.
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