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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#101

Post by arvinjoar »

jpadkins wrote: post #99
gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors? I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

As a EU member Sweden is open to most of our European neighbors... We also take in way more immigrants than most.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#102

Post by jacalata »

mattm wrote: post #97
gvr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're dead on with the "boo-hoo god forbid I'd have to sort my trash, raise my own kid, pack my grocery bag, carry my luggage mentality." Whenever I'm offered these services I feel annoyed - what do I look like, a giant baby? I can carry my own bag. The larger the wealth gap is in society, the more people become obsessed with comparing themselves to others and the more patterns we see designed to enable them…

I've never understood porters in hotels. You've just transported your bags for possibly thousands of miles and many hours but they are going to take them the last few meters to your room by elevator on a cart and then they expect a tip for it.

In the civilised days when they began, I assume you had just been chauffeured to the hotel and the chauffeur has handed your bags off to the porter.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#103

Post by gaadd33 »

jpadkins wrote: post #99
gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors? I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

"SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth." no more so than the rest of the United States is insofar as immigration goes. I don't believe there are many (any?) people living in SF that qualify as the poorest people on earth though.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#104

Post by gaadd33 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #78

This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs. On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy. On the negative side: - Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the arti…

In your best case scenario, what about the reduced expenditure on shipping trash to places where landfills are open? E.g. I believe NYC ships a good bit of trash down to the Carolinas.

Also only 54% is currently sent to a landfill, so that would reduce your energy return to 524 GWh. That's about 20 years worth of new power plants coming online. (It appears most years the US adds about 20-25 GWh in power generation capacity a year)

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#105

Post by gaadd33 »

xxpor wrote: post #33
read_again wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I really think the fact that Sweden is 30 time smaller than the US is a significant aspect of the problem, which ought to be highlighted a bit more when doing a comparison between these two countries on their energy models. How hard would it be for the US to implement such solution (assuming the cost would not be as prohibitive as it is compared with nuclear energy), first in a large city like NY (or LA) a…

Go look up Harrisburg and how their trash->energy plant as worked out.

Yeah because a mismanaged city project in a dysfunctional city is a great example of the actual technology, especially when you hire totally unqualified companies to do it. But hey, we could have spent all that money on a Wild West Museum instead or maybe just prayed some more for a balanced budget.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#106

Post by sgdnogb2n »

willvarfar wrote: post #83
mhb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

(Living in Sweden) Actually, the Swedes really do believe in this. Everyone I know conscientiously sorts their trash. A Swede will happy carry their own bags up to their rooms in hotels, too. Most hotels don't have porters. They don't have the whole tipping thing either generally. You go through life doing things for yourself, not paying others to do things for you. Maybe its the US psyche and is some kind of superio…

According to what I read about our history, the US tried to get rid of tipping early on, in an effort to have a more egalitarian society, but people couldn't stand the idea.

As far as I have ever seen, most people don't mind sorting the trash, the different bins just aren't there.

In places where there is a single recycling can, I can't remember anyone throwing recycling into the trash can, with righteous indignation, muttering about the extra cost to their personal time.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#107

Post by sgdnogb2n »

jacalata wrote: post #102
mattm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood porters in hotels. You've just transported your bags for possibly thousands of miles and many hours but they are going to take them the last few meters to your room by elevator on a cart and then they expect a tip for it.

In the civilised days when they began, I assume you had just been chauffeured to the hotel and the chauffeur has handed your bags off to the porter.

Maybe you'd still be wheezing from all of the road dust you'd been inhaling in the carriage the entire ride.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#108

Post by briandear »

kamakazizuru wrote: post #93
mhb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

its counterintuitive to me that you think something intelligent and good for society like sorting the trash that you generate is even remotely comparable to fighting a war that shouldn't have happened to start with - and spraying agent orange at a bunch of innocents.

I won't defend the Vietnam War, however generalizing the bunch innocents is a bit daft. The US gets criticized for torture yet the US version of torture compared in no way to the torture perpetuated by that 'bunch of innocents.' Let's not even get into that 'peaceful' Communist group just across te border known as the Khmer Rouge. It's stylish to be a Che Guevara-shirt wearing anti-American granola eating hippy, yet Che, the North Vietnamese, the Soviets and every other group idolized by armchair academics were far more brutal than anything ever done by the United States. Yes there were innocent victims, but it takes two sides to make a war. And given the state of Vietnam today (compared to, for example, South Korea) the war seems like it was justified in intent despite the deficiencies of its execution. Bloggers have been sent to prison in Vietnam for simply critising the government. As 'bad' as the US might be, at least we don't send people for prison for speaking their mind. You can still burn te flag if you want, that's your right. The fact that you can't do that in Vietnam kind of proves my point.

Go blame Ho Chi Minh as well for the war that shouldn't have happened. Of course by doing that, you'll likely be kicked out of the organic food co-op.

I prefer that we kept all politics off Hacker News. Nobody cares about my (or your) political views unless they pertain to something extremely relevant to the tech and startup communities.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#109

Post by briandear »

westicle wrote: post #100
belorn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Indeed. I always get a bit surprised when I see visiting people throwing cans out of the car window, or a plastic wrapper while walking down the street. I guess its a wonder that they only re…

Cultural norms... When I was in certain large, developed cities in China (nearly 15 years ago now) most of the toddlers I saw in public had "open bottom" outfits on; they literally used the street as a toilet. Some parents would hold them over the bin when they needed to go. Many wouldn't.

They still do that, even in the nicest neighborhoods in Shanghai. I lived there a little over a year ago and it was poop central for the little ones on the street. Allegedly it results in faster potty training and one could argue that it cuts down on diaper waste.. so it could be called environmental, despite the horror is causes for the foreigners who witness it. Some parents did have more talent than others at aiming their child appropriately.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#110

Post by briandear »

stretchwithme wrote: post #34

In the third world, the poor comb through garbage dumps seeking anything that might have value. Obviously, I'd like to see that end. There are many more productive things humans can do that are far less of a risk to their health. But imagine robots that are able to do it, either at the source or before the garbage is burned or buried or shipped off elsewhere. A lot of work still remains before that happens, but one d…

Of course, when those poor people can afford robots to scavenge in the trash, they won't need to scavenge in the trash. As far as more productive things, when you don't have anything to eat and nothing of value, there's nothing more productive than trying to find something of value. Also, scavenging trash dumps is probably the least of their health concerns. Let's solve clean water before we start worrying about trash sorting in Somalia.
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