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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#91

Post by pedalpete »

workhere-io wrote: post #71
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

Sweden has cut services and taxes more than any other western country in the past decade. They still have some of the highest taxes in the world and an extensive welfare state.

Though statistically you are correct, I'd like to see a comparison of not only current tax rates, but tax rates compared to debt/deficits.

The US may be collecting less taxes, but if they're just putting the remainder on credit, then they aren't really any further ahead (and possibly behind).

I did a quick search, but didn't come up with anything.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#92

Post by gilgoomesh »

rorrr2 wrote: post #86
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person It's actually much more efficient. Sorting is expensive. Collecting cans is trivial. I would love to have 10 cans and help the environment. Something like this: Glass, plastic, paper, metal, bio/food, electronics, rubber, textiles, everything else. Right now most of that stuff gets mixed and gets piled up polluting ground water.

> Sorting is expensive. Collecting cans is trivial.

Collecting 10 cans is not really trivial. And even with 10 different cans, the result still needs to be further sorted (there are 20 or 30 types of recyclable plastic alone). Glass needs to be sorted into 4-5 different colors. Paper needs to be sorted into 4-5 different qualities.

Industrial waste sorting certainly is expensive -- due to capital expenditure, not ongoing costs -- but it's needed in every recycling solution. The problem with expecting the public to sort, is that humans are less good at sorting than (well-designed) machines and relying on humans sorting reducing the percentage of recyclable material that is actually recycled.

There are serious arguments that all general waste should be machine sorted since it's the only way to maintain maximum levels of recycling.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#93

Post by kamakazizuru »

mhb wrote: post #62
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

its counterintuitive to me that you think something intelligent and good for society like sorting the trash that you generate is even remotely comparable to fighting a war that shouldn't have happened to start with - and spraying agent orange at a bunch of innocents.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#94

Post by xahrepap »

belorn wrote: post #76
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

> Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Indeed. I always get a bit surprised when I see visiting people throwing cans out of the car window, or a plastic wrapper while walking down the street. I guess its a wonder that they only re…

I live across the street from a small park. It's sad how much garbage is in my yard after the Saturday tee-ball games. I just wonder how these same people would feel if I came to their neighborhood and just dumped my trash in their yards.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#97

Post by mattm »

gvr wrote: post #88
willvarfar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Living in Sweden) Actually, the Swedes really do believe in this. Everyone I know conscientiously sorts their trash. A Swede will happy carry their own bags up to their rooms in hotels, too. Most hotels don't have porters. They don't have the whole tipping thing either generally. You go through life doing things for yourself, not paying others to do things for you. Maybe its the US psyche and is some kind of superio…

I think you're dead on with the "boo-hoo god forbid I'd have to sort my trash, raise my own kid, pack my grocery bag, carry my luggage mentality." Whenever I'm offered these services I feel annoyed - what do I look like, a giant baby? I can carry my own bag. The larger the wealth gap is in society, the more people become obsessed with comparing themselves to others and the more patterns we see designed to enable them…

I've never understood porters in hotels. You've just transported your bags for possibly thousands of miles and many hours but they are going to take them the last few meters to your room by elevator on a cart and then they expect a tip for it.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#98

Post by rorrr2 »

gilgoomesh wrote: post #92
rorrr2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person It's actually much more efficient. Sorting is expensive. Collecting cans is trivial. I would love to have 10 cans and help the environment. Something like this: Glass, plastic, paper, metal, bio/food, electronics, rubber, textiles, everything else. Right now most of that stuff gets mixed and gets piled up polluting ground water.

> Sorting is expensive. Collecting cans is trivial. Collecting 10 cans is not really trivial. And even with 10 different cans, the result still needs to be further sorted (there are 20 or 30 types of recyclable plastic alone). Glass needs to be sorted into 4-5 different colors. Paper needs to be sorted into 4-5 different qualities. Industrial waste sorting certainly is expensive -- due to capital expenditure, not ong…

> the result still needs to be further sorted (there are 20 or 30 types of recyclable plastic alone

They actually have machines for that. There's a youtube video on how they sort types of plastic.

> Glass needs to be sorted into 4-5 different colors

Sorting by color is trivial to automate.

> Paper needs to be sorted into 4-5 different qualities.

Yes. However where I live you have to separate cardboard from everything else. Most other paper gets shredded into pulp and recycled.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#99

Post by jpadkins »

gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors?

I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#100

Post by westicle »

belorn wrote: post #76
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

> Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Indeed. I always get a bit surprised when I see visiting people throwing cans out of the car window, or a plastic wrapper while walking down the street. I guess its a wonder that they only re…

Cultural norms...

When I was in certain large, developed cities in China (nearly 15 years ago now) most of the toddlers I saw in public had "open bottom" outfits on; they literally used the street as a toilet. Some parents would hold them over the bin when they needed to go. Many wouldn't.

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