XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' • Hacker News Board

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#461

Post by MichaelGG » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:05 PM UTC

jstalin wrote: post #34

jstalin wrote: post #30

Slide 6 of the presentation clearly shows that pretty much every government is in on the program, with heavy concentration in western Europe. One question, how did the dot in China get there? http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jul/31/nsa...

And look at slide 17: "Show me all VPN startups in country X, and give me data so I can decrypt and discover users ." Holy crap. Is all encryption broken?

There's no evidence that any encryption is broken (other than people misusing it (edit: or broken protocols like PPTP)). Anyone could do this kinda thing given enough motivation and money. Determining a VPN's users? Just monitor all inbound connections to the VPN service. Now you have the IPs of the users. The IP alone might be enough to know the user or a search on that IP might show them logging into other services that reveal their ID. Pretty simple.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#462

Post by mayanksinghal » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:06 PM UTC

s_q_b wrote: post #414

noonespecial wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technical possibility isn't the new and staggering part, it's the profound lack of morality, respect for any ideal whatsoever, and compete apathy towards the oaths these people took to serve us . They have compeley misused the power we granted them in sacred trust. We should remove it from them at once. If this has become impossible, we need to know that as soon as we can.

> The technical possibility isn't the new and staggering part, it's the profound lack of morality, respect for any ideal whatsoever, and compete apathy towards the oaths these people took to serve us. Again, I'll chime in as the resident apologist. The people working at Fort Meade are not evil. They truly believe they're doing a great service to the nation. They may be wrong, and they've certainly thrown privacy out…

> The people working at Fort Meade are not evil. They truly believe they're doing a great service ...

That isn't really a strong argument. Firstly, their actions is supposed to reflect the ideology of the US citizens in general. If it doesn't, either they are not being administered as well as they should be or they are purposefully ignoring the will of the citizens. Secondly, the idea that because they truly believe that they are doing great service doesn't actually justify any of the actions. If we are forgoing the label of evil because they think that they are doing great work (and I am OK will that, I hate the label 'evil'. It is unconditionally partisan) then it does question whether Nazis/Soviet union deserved the label as well. Because I fear that they too believed in their actions.

> our legal framework is still grappling with that change

US legal framework does not seem to be struggling (I am not a native speaker, so I am assuming that is what you meant). It has expanded the power to monitor and interfere knowingly and willfully. Let's not blame this on misunderstanding or incompetence. While it is the first thing that this should attribute to, the people who have built this system seem highly skillful and knowledgeable. If you claim that decision makers do not understand the new world that has suddenly bubbled up, well it's your responsibility and that of the NSA employees who seem to be following orders without questioning, to either make them understand or replace them. And in all fairness, US voters did. The man even won a Nobel Peace Prize for some reason I cannot understand. But his actions behind the doors seem totally contrary to what his words have been in past. Not really the fault of the voters but it definitely raises questions if he truly understood the costs and still took the leap.

[Edit: grammar]

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#463

Post by laxatives » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:06 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #142

jacquesm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman never was a conspiracy crackpot, he always was a visionary. The only thing that changed is some people's judgment of him.

You can be completely correct and still be a crackpot. What we need is strict limitations on what can and should be collected, and how it's used, plus better methods of securing what's being exchanged. For example, sending email as plain-text, leaving it on the server as plain-text, maybe that's a bad idea. The NSA isn't necessarily the only reason you'd do this. Foreign governments are going to take an interest in t…

You make crackpot sound more like a personality trait than a status.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#464

Post by general_failure » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:07 PM UTC

Buzaga wrote: post #395

Yep I'm done, I'll just go about my life from now on... It's total power, I think it's unlikely that they'll want to give up on this kind of power, they'll probably keep signing governments and 'the tech' will eventually be exported and in the hands of governments everywhere, they'll keep building this and they'll create tons of algorythms of course because it's just too much data, any resistance can be crushed... an…

Totally agree. They are not going to give this up... and worse, we are not going to fight this. We are speaking up only because this is the internet. We just want to get on with our lives.

Kinda surprising why all the people who are 'overwhelmed' and 'terrified' in the parent thread don't come out and protest. Oh wait, there's kids to feed. My bad, sorry.

(no snark)

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#465

Post by northwest » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:08 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #29

This is overwhelming. Even when you always hear the claims about we knew this was going on, somehow it is still shocking when you see it all laid out infront of you with screenshots and the capabilities described. I can see how they get HTTP information, since they would intercept at transit hubs - but how are they getting all Facebook private messages and Gmail? I was also looking for another unique ID that users ar…

> but how are they getting all Facebook private messages and Gmail?

It was reported earlier that the NSA has installed hardware at their "partner" companies. As you certainly remember from the slides, they are: Facebook, Google, Microsoft/Skype, AOL, Paltalk, ...

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#466

Post by superuser2 » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:13 PM UTC

api wrote: post #376

I'm getting seriously irritated at the "I have nothing to hide" crowd. For starters, here are a few ways this can go horribly wrong: * Industrial espionage -- it's big business, and I'm sure it pays better than being an NSA analyst. * Foreign espionage -- since this gives unlimited querying power to every agent, a single "turned" agent could inflict massive damage on U.S. government and industry interests on behalf o…

Anytime an adversary (opponent in a lawsuit, police investigator, promotion candidate, political candidate, etc) is owed a favor by a member of the intelligence community, you are going to lose.

The whole of your life may be innocent, but a single interaction (searched for porn? vented about someone in a private conversation?) taken out of context can almost certainly destroy you.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#467

Post by MichaelGG » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:15 PM UTC

hannibal5 wrote: post #23

Just like suspected. If you use encryption like PGP, you become person of interest.

You've no information to back up that statement.

Using PGP as part of a filter makes perfect sense. If you're looking for "bad guys" that do certain activities, as a starting filter, it doesn't hurt to say "OK, show me everyone in this region doing these activities. Now filter by language, etc. etc.".

Just like if I was looking for gang members, I might start off a filter with "look for tattoos". It doesn't mean I'm saying everyone with a tattoo is gang member, it's just a way to start filtering.

The NSA analysts are presumably actually trying to get something done (find people they think are bad). How stupid do you think they are? If you were an NSA analyst, would you tag "person of interest" on everyone using PGP? How would that help your goal of finding actual people of interest?

They say they caught 300 "terrorists" with this program and other success stories. Presumably, they didn't achieve any success by wasting lots of time flagging random PGP users.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#468

Post by junto » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:15 PM UTC

The map on page 6 is interesting. Server locations of note:

  Moscow, Russia

  Caracas, Venezuela

  Tripoli, Libya

  Hubei Province, China

  Burma

  Lagos, Nigeria

  Saudi Arabia

  Iran (and geograhically surrounding Iran)

  Ukraine

Based on page 13, I wonder if Google have any servers at these locations?

Oh, what a surprise: http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/04/11/map-of-all-google-data-c...

Does that look familiar?

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#469

Post by obs4711 » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:18 PM UTC

computer wrote: post #429

VerilyForsooth wrote: post #295

Why is the commentry on this topic always braindead? The article states that there is a query interface using the email address as the key. But Where does it say that every single email/webpage from every single person is being collected? Such a task would be technically impossible. It seems far more likely that it's querying a database of pretargeted people. There is so much hysterical nonsense regarding this topic.…

The raw slides are included in the article. You should consider looking at them.

Yeah, I've read them. Where do they say that every single email/webpage from every single person is being collected?

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#470

Post by dwiel » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:19 PM UTC

legutierr wrote: post #428

antimatter wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I can't seem to make people around me understand this point.

Do you list these negatives when having that conversation? Do they not see the possibility of something like this being used against them or family members when you lay out the possibilities specifically (blackmail and industrial espionage could hit anybody)? The "nothing to hide" trope seems to me to be entirely based on a false dichotomy that contrasts "nothing to hide" with "unpatriotic/criminal". I think this is…

When I make this argument the most common response is that they have faith in the goodness of people and dont consider these risks to be very significant.