XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' • Hacker News Board

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#381

Post by astrodust » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #358

Karunamon wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where Stallman breaks from admirable principle and dives into untenable crackpottery, IMO, is where he calls proprietary software evil.

Crackpot => unsupported by evidence. Calling proprietary software evil is an opinion, and there are plenty of examples of evidence that proprietary software was created in ways that one could label as evil. Give it a while and there might be some revelation which will cause lots of people to go 'oh, that Stallman was such a visionary, calling proprietary software evil'. Now on this particular aspect of Stallman's rea…

I've never heard Stallman be right about anything that wasn't blindingly obvious to anyone who was an open-minded observer of the same things at the same time.

He's not the only one that's been crowing about electronic surveillance. Ever since things like Carnivore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)) were uncovered in the 1990s, it's been obvious that there's a lot going on we will never be fully informed about, that the internet is no longer a safe playground devoid of malevolent actors. Mailing lists and USENET groups at the same period of time were constantly aflame with these sorts of issues.

If you can cite an occasion where Stallman has had a unique insight into the situation, I'd be surprised.

Stallman, for all his posturing and relentless drum beating, which is at least admirable from the point of dedication, is still no Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Marshall McLuhan or Raymond Kurzweil.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#382

Post by lazyjones » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #368

lazyjones wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are done attacking Stallman with a false analogy, would you care to name a few of his invalid conclusions? More specifically, what is so impractical or "completely wrong" about not using smartphones?

He's not opposed to smartphones, he's opposed to cellular phones as these can serve as a tracking beacon, following your movements. Given that the cellular providers are capturing and archiving location data, this is fact, his conclusion is we should avoid using these sorts of phones completely. Why? The reasoning here is a awfully thin, but has something to do with "being tracked = bad" and then goes into crazy terr…

> Why? The reasoning here is a awfully thin, but has something to do with "being tracked = bad" and then goes into crazy territory from there.

You don't understand why tracking may be bad? Or are you just trying very hard to mock his very valid conclusion?

Here's other people's thoughts about cellphone tracking: http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention/ (totally crazy, right!)

> If he's concerned about remaining invisible, then this must be applied rigorously across all aspects of his life

No, it mustn't. Every bit helps.

> Does he wear dazzle face-paint or glasses with bright IR LEDs on them so that CCTV cameras can't pick him up?

Perhaps he does not yet live in an area with seamless CCTV tracking.

> The sign that someone's a crackpot is in how inconsistent they are in applying what they've concluded. It means they're missing something important.

You must be a crackpot then because you're clearly missing that Stallman has probably managed to avoid having his daily movements tracked by some carrier.

> Everything Stallman advocates to avoid detection just makes him an even bigger target.

To whom, with what (crackpot-like) line of thought? Stallman is very open about his principles, his reasons and his actions. It would be extremely dumb for anyone to derive from this information that he is dangerous or a worthwhile target.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#383

Post by Karunamon » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:32 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #358

Karunamon wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where Stallman breaks from admirable principle and dives into untenable crackpottery, IMO, is where he calls proprietary software evil.

Crackpot => unsupported by evidence. Calling proprietary software evil is an opinion, and there are plenty of examples of evidence that proprietary software was created in ways that one could label as evil. Give it a while and there might be some revelation which will cause lots of people to go 'oh, that Stallman was such a visionary, calling proprietary software evil'. Now on this particular aspect of Stallman's rea…

Moral judgements are subjective opinion by nature, fair enough, but I bring the crackpot label in for exactly what you say, thinking in absolutes, in black and white, instead of nuance.

In the real world, that shows a distressing lack of critical thinking and a further distressing abundance of dogmatism.

"Proprietary software is bad" -- Subjective value judgement.

"Properitary software is evil" -- Subjective value judgement that shows a lack of thought.

"You should always use free software wherever possible." -- Subjective value judgement.

"You should use absolutely nothing but free software ever" -- Subjective value judgement that shows a lack of thought.

I mean, the FSF "disapproves" of software that is completely free on its own (Fedora, Firefox), merely because they point out nonfree things you can use. (Fedora's firmware bundles and some repos, and Firefox's addons site).

That's completely idiotic. Apparently the FSF's "freedoms" do not include the freedom to run whatever software you choose if it's "unfree".

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#384

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#385

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

northwest wrote: post #245

hannibal5 wrote: post #23

Just like suspected. If you use encryption like PGP, you become person of interest.

Re "Person of Interest":[0] If yesterday we were "conspiracy theorists" when we suspected things like XKeyscore, what are we today if we suspect things like "Person of Interest"-like programs? [0] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1839578/

"You are being watched. The government has a secret system: a machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know, because I built it. I designed the machine to detect acts of terror, but it sees everything. Violent crimes involving ordinary people; people like you. Crimes the government considered 'irrelevant'. They wouldn't act, so I decided I would. But I needed a partner, someone with the skills to intervene. Hunted by the authorities, we work in secret. You'll never find us, but victim or perpetrator, if your number's up... we'll find you".

(from season 1 opening)

It's scary how this is actually not fiction.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#386

Post by jackson5 » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #29

This is overwhelming. Even when you always hear the claims about we knew this was going on, somehow it is still shocking when you see it all laid out infront of you with screenshots and the capabilities described. I can see how they get HTTP information, since they would intercept at transit hubs - but how are they getting all Facebook private messages and Gmail? I was also looking for another unique ID that users ar…

Its kinda interesting how most of the comments are: "amazing!", "shocking!", and "OMG!". But very little is discussed on what could be the solutions, theoretical and practical, short term and long term that could be taken in regards to the facts that came to light. Aside from the lonely fight-p#(%!.com there has not been any serious discussion on HN on this. What are you thinking, people?

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#387

Post by astrodust » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:35 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #378

lazyjones wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are done attacking Stallman with a false analogy, would you care to name a few of his invalid conclusions? More specifically, what is so impractical or "completely wrong" about not using smartphones?

Stallman's stance is against all cell phones, not just smartphones. And I'd argue that in 2013, to the point where we're issuing basic phones to welfare recipients for the purpose of job searching, that this is an invalid conclusion. As is only using the FSF's definition of free software (where it matters less that the software itself is free, but that the software doesn't point out to you any nonfree addons. Fedora…

There's been many missed opportunities to get truly open hardware, an to this day we're still missing out on them. There are initiatives to remedy this, but they're still far from complete and need more motivated drivers to carry them forward.

Using a crappy computer from some no-name company in China is a protest vote and is not pushing things forward.

On the other hand, getting hardware hackers together to create a 100% free hardware platform would. The Raspberry Pi is close, all that's really needed is for some more aggressive lobbying to get the PowerVR driver component open-sourced.

Or consider, given how people are taping out custom Bitcoin ASICs, why is it inconceivable that someone could tape out an open-source CPU?

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#388

Post by chakalakasp » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:36 PM UTC

deveac wrote: post #233

davej wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all intensive purposes FYI, it should be "For all intents and purposes ". :)

Thank you davej, fixed. That mistake is hard-coded in me. It won't be the last time I make it.

Great Googly Moogly this place is friendly. Like Reddit with a +7 CHR and +11 INT roll.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#389

Post by lazyjones » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:38 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #378

lazyjones wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are done attacking Stallman with a false analogy, would you care to name a few of his invalid conclusions? More specifically, what is so impractical or "completely wrong" about not using smartphones?

Stallman's stance is against all cell phones, not just smartphones. And I'd argue that in 2013, to the point where we're issuing basic phones to welfare recipients for the purpose of job searching, that this is an invalid conclusion. As is only using the FSF's definition of free software (where it matters less that the software itself is free, but that the software doesn't point out to you any nonfree addons. Fedora…

I fail to see how not owning a cellphone, only using free software and suitable hardware puts me at a greater inconvenience than, say, having all my life (movements, communication, interests) digitally recorded and made available for later arbitrary use (by any type of government we might have ...). I honestly wish I had the willpower and independence to pull it off.

On the other hand, I totally understand the people who firmly believe that neither governments nor rogue personnel will ever abuse this information to their disadvantage. After all, billions of people firmly believe in some arbitrary deity and we haven't managed to prove them wrong.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#390

Post by clivestaples » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 5:39 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #317

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all: keep the staggering to a minimum. Second: realizing that "we should have known" and "none of this is new" isn't so much about reading news articles and being "plugged in", but rather having an understanding of how the Internet works. To oversimplify greatly, you're essentially playing a very precise game of telephone between around 10-20 different people, and usually about 1-3 different publicly-owned c…

The technical possibility isn't the new and staggering part, it's the profound lack of morality, respect for any ideal whatsoever, and compete apathy towards the oaths these people took to serve us . They have compeley misused the power we granted them in sacred trust. We should remove it from them at once. If this has become impossible, we need to know that as soon as we can.

I could not agree with you more re: removing them at once. Sadly, I don't think an overly militarized police force, rapid transfer of wealth to the top and the post-911 power grab is going to challenged anytime soon.

Most Americans still believe they have more to lose than to gain by asserting themselves...