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XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

theguardian.com

231–240 of 641 posts

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#231
post #218
post #29

This is overwhelming. Even when you always hear the claims about we knew this was going on, somehow it is still shocking when you see it all laid out infront of you with screenshots and the capabilities described. I can see how they get HTTP information, since they would intercept at transit hubs - but how are they getting all Facebook private messages and Gmail? I was also looking for another unique ID that users ar…

>This is overwhelming. Even when you always hear the claims about we knew this was going on, somehow it is still shocking when you see it all laid out infront of you with screenshots and the capabilities described. It has become a bit of a pet peeve of mine recently to see self-aggrandizing comments from users around the net about how "we should have known" and "none of this is new." I'm a practically addicted news j…

> For all intensive purposes

FYI, it should be "For all intents and purposes". :)

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connections secured with TLS aren't effective if a) you can compromise the CA, b) have the private keys, c) have cooperation of the appropriate company (most likely), d) have compromised the server, e) are aware of flaws in the encryption algorithm, f) weak keys have been used, or g) have compromised the client computer.

Compromising the CA isn't as powerful as most would think. It does allow you to MITM, however it does not allow you to do so invisibly. Someone who is paying attention to the public key could notice that it changed.

But you could do it for a specific target and that target has a high chance of not noticing. Doing it indiscriminately on the other hand...

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#233
post #231
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is overwhelming. Even when you always hear the claims about we knew this was going on, somehow it is still shocking when you see it all laid out infront of you with screenshots and the capabilities described. It has become a bit of a pet peeve of mine recently to see self-aggrandizing comments from users around the net about how "we should have known" and "none of this is new." I'm a practically addicted news j…

> For all intensive purposes FYI, it should be "For all intents and purposes ". :)

Thank you davej, fixed. That mistake is hard-coded in me. It won't be the last time I make it.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be completely correct and still be a crackpot. What we need is strict limitations on what can and should be collected, and how it's used, plus better methods of securing what's being exchanged. For example, sending email as plain-text, leaving it on the server as plain-text, maybe that's a bad idea. The NSA isn't necessarily the only reason you'd do this. Foreign governments are going to take an interest in t…

> You can be completely correct and still be a crackpot. This is very important. What do you mean by "crackpot"?

It's not feasible for the average person to restrict their lives to the point that RMS does and advocates for.

* Reading the web via email only

* Using completely free software and hardware (which as far as I can tell, limits you to a very small subset of Linux on a single Chinese-made netbook)

* Not carrying a cellphone

* Not using any social networks.

Stallman's principled stand is admirable, but untenable for most. I need to violate every single one of these tenets in an average day at work.

And that's before we even enter the realm of entertainment, which is even worse as far as the FSF's definition of freedom goes.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be completely correct and still be a crackpot. This is very important. What do you mean by "crackpot"?

It's not feasible for the average person to restrict their lives to the point that RMS does and advocates for. * Reading the web via email only * Using completely free software and hardware (which as far as I can tell, limits you to a very small subset of Linux on a single Chinese-made netbook) * Not carrying a cellphone * Not using any social networks. Stallman's principled stand is admirable, but untenable for most…

Principled != crackpot. Crackpot is an insult intended for the feeble minded and is used to reduce any opinions a person might hold on a subject as reject-able out of hand.

Over unity energy generation from the vacuum is rightly labeled as 'crackpot' imo, Stallman's position, while extreme should (again, imo) not be labeled as such.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#238

Lurkers first post here. I always said saying "I told you so." when stuff like this started getting revealed would feel like a hollow phrase. Some of us have spent quite a bit of time talking about these issues, and were mostly rejected as crackpot "conspiracy theorists". While there are plenty of those around, maybe I could use this slight moment of pseudo-clarity to propose something. I could tell you where this is…

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they believe their theories to be 99% certain instead of the most probable 1%. "I told you so" goes both ways except that conspiracy theorists never accept and admit it, there will always be another conspiracy to cover the current one. In the overall game it simply makes much more mathematical sense to treat conspiracy theorists as crackpots since they will so often get i…

Negative. The problem with conspiracy theorists, or any group for that matter, is that they are so easily put into that group and then dismissed as a whole. Personally I think at the core of the matter is an enormous imbalance of importance placed on the authority or source of an argument, to the detriment of argumentative logos. Possibly some form of the genetic fallacy.

For example, you deride an entire "group" of people for believing their postulations to be 99% probable and assert that instead they are more likely 1% probable. I would say you just fucking pulled those statistics out of your ass, the very act for which you are deriding the group for! Such irony in a single sentence has been seldom found.

Sure, I agree with you that there are a plethora of quite frankly ridiculous conspiracy theories (not to be confused with the theorists themselves, who can often be just as ridiculous). That being said though, you are in fact completely wrong when you say "In the overall game it simply makes much more mathematical sense to treat conspiracy theorists as crackpots since they will so often get it wrong." and here is why.

Conspiracies are a driving factor throughout history. To ignore them in the past and in the present is to dismiss the very core their historicity. To dismiss them based on some flawed, arbitrary assertions about mathematical calculations that have no academic backing is simply daft.

Also, as I said before, there are indeed plenty of logically absurd theories... but why exactly are they absurd? One, they defy logic, but more importantly, the more absurd ones are often based on no evidence whatsoever. If you have such a difficult time sifting through the completely absurd to find the logically probable/possible in order to more finely tune your engagement, that is a deficiency on your part, and no one else.

I'm trying to think of an analogy to this... It's very much like the general reaction to homeless people. Many people have a general reaction to homeless people in which they assume they are either scammers, drug addicts, or lazy. They may have had a bad experience with a homeless person, and now seem to think almost all homeless people are not worth the time/effort. I understand how they can come to that conclusion, but the statistical facts do not support their argument, and, similarly, the statistical facts do you not support yours either, because you have essentially taken the same approach to "conspiracy theorists".

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#239

I don't think it's a leap to assume that ALL TLS certificates are compromised and the NSA can monitor ALL Internet traffic.

No, that's a huge leap, actually. You could go make a certificate right now for your web site and keep the private key private. I could visit your site and verify that the signature is the expected one. If you and I are both diligent, we can know that our TLS session is safe.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#240

Lurkers first post here. I always said saying "I told you so." when stuff like this started getting revealed would feel like a hollow phrase. Some of us have spent quite a bit of time talking about these issues, and were mostly rejected as crackpot "conspiracy theorists". While there are plenty of those around, maybe I could use this slight moment of pseudo-clarity to propose something. I could tell you where this is…

OK, I will take the bait. What do you think the greater machine is?

Here is my take:

You do not need to posit an organized Illuminati-like conspiracy to have cause for concern. We can find plenty to worry about even if we limit ourselves to properties of the system that are either emergent or driven by natural human behavioural traits.

For example, a lot of people in positions of authority got there because they have authoritarian instincts, and seek self-validation not only by dominating and controlling others, but by ensuring that their position of authority and dominance is recognized by others.

This is very human, and very instinctive, and operates at an unconscious, almost sexual level. The alpha male will seek to dominate the pack and to remind competing males of his superior status. You do not have to consciously be aware that you are seeking power, money and sex, but you are, nonetheless.

This instinct can operate both consciously and unconsciously. Those who make decisions to concentrate power and authority, to separate and elevate themselves from the general population - they do not have to be consciously aware of what they are doing. They can and will rationalize their beliefs and actions to make it fit in with the dominant culture of their peers. This process is called confabulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation) and everybody does it all the time - it is the only way that we can make sense of our lives and live in a human body without going insane with the sheer irrationality of it all.

These instincts manifest themselves in lots of small, individually inconsequential decisions. Normally, this is OK, because our social and bureaucratic technologies are (were) too ineffective for too much harm to be done. The ongoing march of modern information technology, however, looks likely to change that, meaning that the unconsciously malicious instincts of humans in positions of authority can become amplified and magnified.

I would be particularly worried if this resulted in a feedback loop - so that increased power and increased power-seeking behaviour mutually reinforce one another in a runaway process. I cannot readily identify such a loop in operation though -- can anybody else?

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