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Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

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Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#101

Post by VLM »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #87
thwest wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy you're looking for here is drunk being-run-over, not drunk driving. Consider this illustrative example: Driver: "Hey man, mind if I run over your leg?" Drunk Person: "mfamhhhhmmhaha sure lesh pud it on youtubes" Driver: looks at camera "You hear that judge and jury?! Consent! Yeeehaw!"

That's not what he was asking. The question is if someone can be "too drunk to consent" (assuming they are conscious enough to verbally consent, but too drunk for that consent to be valid in the eyes of the law), then why are people held responsible for drunk driving incidents? If the law finds them incapacitated to the point of not being held responsible for their decisions (in this case to have sex, or sign contrac…

Puritanism, pure and simple.

Note you can kill all the people you want in a plain ole traffic accident with practically no punishment compared to using any other weapon... as long as you're not drunk. Heck they don't even municipal cite people for killing bicyclists around here, sometimes. Needless to say I don't ride on the roads or let my kids ride on the roads, that would be pretty dumb to do, given the prevailing conditions.

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#104

Post by thwest »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #87
thwest wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy you're looking for here is drunk being-run-over, not drunk driving. Consider this illustrative example: Driver: "Hey man, mind if I run over your leg?" Drunk Person: "mfamhhhhmmhaha sure lesh pud it on youtubes" Driver: looks at camera "You hear that judge and jury?! Consent! Yeeehaw!"

That's not what he was asking. The question is if someone can be "too drunk to consent" (assuming they are conscious enough to verbally consent, but too drunk for that consent to be valid in the eyes of the law), then why are people held responsible for drunk driving incidents? If the law finds them incapacitated to the point of not being held responsible for their decisions (in this case to have sex, or sign contrac…

Because the drunk driver's lack of consent isn't the problem with drunk driving: it's the lack of consent from everyone else on the road.

The issue with consent while drunk isn't about what you do to yourself while drunk: it is about hurting other people. You have the right to get drunk to the point of passing out in front of the stereo with The Cure's worst album at full blast, the dishes undone, leftovers on the stove and that still doesn't give anyone the right to steal your stereo, sharpie your face or fuck you (even if they shake you hard enough to get some vague affirmatory groan out of your body).

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#105

Post by hackinthebochs »

thwest wrote: post #104
hackinthebochs wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what he was asking. The question is if someone can be "too drunk to consent" (assuming they are conscious enough to verbally consent, but too drunk for that consent to be valid in the eyes of the law), then why are people held responsible for drunk driving incidents? If the law finds them incapacitated to the point of not being held responsible for their decisions (in this case to have sex, or sign contrac…

Because the drunk driver's lack of consent isn't the problem with drunk driving: it's the lack of consent from everyone else on the road. The issue with consent while drunk isn't about what you do to yourself while drunk: it is about hurting other people. You have the right to get drunk to the point of passing out in front of the stereo with The Cure's worst album at full blast, the dishes undone, leftovers on the st…

Your answer implicitly casts the drunk person being acted upon, rather than an actor. I see this a lot and I have a feeling this stems from society's sexist views regarding sex that we've all internalized (men are always the actor, women passive). The point is assuming the drunk person (lets assume a women) is giving "enthusiastic consent", and thus is a "drunk actor" in this situation, why is responsibility invalidated in the case of sex, but not in the case of drunk driving?

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#106

Post by jwoah12 »

VLM wrote: post #95
asdasf wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just repeated the same thing. Again, I am not suggesting "stop date rape by preventing people from knowingly drinking alcohol" should be a goal. I am saying these devices are harmful. They have the opposite effect from what is intended. They create a false sense of security in regards to the problem, convincing people that as long as their drink hasn't been spiked they are fine. But 99% of date rapes involvin…

Perhaps both of you would understand each others position better, by meditating on the phrase "security theater". A straw that detects a handful of numerous dangerous substances is about as useful at its claim of producing "safety" as TSA agents molesting grandmas and teen girls at airports. I'm rather proud of this analogy.

I understand the position (and enjoy your analogy), I just simply disagree with it. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is drinking an alcoholic beverage is going to be tricked into thinking the effects of said alcohol are any different just because a straw or cup says "SAFE."

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#107

Post by asdasf »

jwoah12 wrote: post #106
VLM wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps both of you would understand each others position better, by meditating on the phrase "security theater". A straw that detects a handful of numerous dangerous substances is about as useful at its claim of producing "safety" as TSA agents molesting grandmas and teen girls at airports. I'm rather proud of this analogy.

I understand the position (and enjoy your analogy), I just simply disagree with it. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is drinking an alcoholic beverage is going to be tricked into thinking the effects of said alcohol are any different just because a straw or cup says "SAFE."

Go ask some college aged women about it and see what you find. Ignorance of the effects of alcohol is incredibly widespread. Thousands of women a year swear they had their drink spiked but actually just got black-out drunk. Convincing women that all they need to worry about is the 1% case, and that the 99% case doesn't exist is harmful.

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#108

Post by kazagistar »

DanBC wrote: post #20
keevie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these "date rape drugs" even come close to comparing to alcohol. It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Once you start using scary drugs that no one has ever heard of, then wow, that's something we can condemn. Especially since no one we know would ever do…

> It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. They really do. Drunk consent isn't consent, and people leave themselves open to accusations of, and convictions for, rape if they have sex with drunk people.

That is insane. How can two people both rape each other?

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#109

Post by roc »

bestdayever wrote: post #86
roc wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem with cups would be dark-colored drinks. The concept looks great if we assume a martini. But fairly useless with a cola- or red-juice-based mixer.

Wouldn't the straws come in handy in that situation?

They'd be more visually practical, but it would be far easier to swap a reactive straw with a non-reactive straw.

It's a tricky problem, even before you consider false-positives and the false sense of security in general.

Re: Straws And Cups That Detect Date Rape Drugs

#110

Post by silverlake »

jamieb wrote: post #89
asdasf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it though, lots of people "experience" being roofied, and then are tested and it turns out they were not. Our "common sense" judgments on situations like this are actually incredibly unreliable. >Uncommon is pretty broad, if something as severe as being drugged happens to one person out of every 200 each night, it is "common" in my mind. But evidence suggests it is no where even close to that common. A…

>That's exactly it though, lots of people "experience" being roofied, and then are tested and it turns out they were not. Do you have a link for that?

Toxicological findings in cases of alleged drug-facilitated sexual assault in the United Kingdom over a 3-year period: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16054005

TL;DR: 1014 people claimed they were drugged and sexually assaulted. "In 21 cases (2%), a sedative or disinhibiting drug was detected..." So-called "date rape" drugs were a subset of these cases.

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