An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#31

Post by bmelton » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end.

He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet still, he would like to return to Amazon for gainful employment.

How exactly was anyone taken advantage of?

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#32

Post by Kapura » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:30 PM UTC

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

hey, uh, did you read the article? The guy seemed to not be complaining so much about how him and the other staffers were being treated and more concerned with the fact that his team had really quick turn around and the people who he felt were the most qualified for the work were not being given the positions they deserved.

I replied further down the page, but there are a lot of employees who amazon treats pretty well. They are just much, much closer to the tech core of the business. Engineers especially get a pretty good deal; a friend of mine went out of undergrad to work at amazon for a six-figure starting salary plus additional dosh for moving expenses.

I hate to break it to you, but Amazon is a really, really fucking huge enormous gigantic company. And maybe you should talk to people who work there rather than just judging the company based on a few negative internet articles.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#33

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

Kapura wrote: post #29

anigbrowl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps. Obviously people like that don't deserve any kind of job security and should be fired annually. /sarcasm

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon ha…

I have no notion that they're essential to the business in any way. But firing people after 11 months just to avoid a deeper employment relationship is a terrible way to treat people.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#34

Post by mpyne » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #24

Aloha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft got sued in the 90's for not extending retirement plans to its temps. Since then the two track system developed.

This isn't unique to the tech sector, there were companies operating this sort of policy before MS. I'm not asking why, I'm asking whether it is actually economically efficient or whether people just take HR's say-so that it is.

It's kind of the same way in the military, at least for officers.

Once an officer gets around 18 years of active-duty time the law requires that they be permitted to serve 20 years if they wish (to qualify for retirement).

So one of the things the Navy looks at when deciding whether to mobilize an Reserve officer is whether they would possibly hit that 18-year point "by accident" as then they'd have to keep them on the active-duty list for even longer than they thought.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#35

Post by ryanobjc » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

garybizzle wrote: post #28

ryanobjc wrote: post #14

I used to work at Amazon, and this is disturbing, but not really surprising. A focus on cost instead of value is a core element at Amazon. I ultimately left because what could be described as a failure to recognize value over the actual cost. 5 years of controlling high-value but high-cost things left my department with a shredded staff. By the time the economy was improving in the 2006-8 timeframe, nearly all my col…

The author also mentions "Although it may seem like the company is saving money — because you don’t have to provide temporary workers with medical coverage or paid vacation time." I just want to point out that contractors actually cost the company MORE money than employees, on average around $30k/year per worker. I think the main reason contractors are used is because many full-time employees "settle" somewhat and do…

It's hard to say if specifically someone did a cost/benefit/value analysis.

But when you work in a culture of doing things that are frugal, cheap, and those are rewarded, you will be rewarded for doing things that SEEM frugal and cheap.

So even if there is long term value reduction, no one realizes this, or has done the math, and thus it seems like Amazon is saving a butt-load. After all, the face value (in terms of salary) and flexibility of temp workers seems like a win-win, especially emotionally.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#36

Post by pisarzp » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:38 PM UTC

I'll try to play devil's advocate role.

"One day that all changed. Our experienced team leader was transferred to a different department"

It looks like the main problem was not Amazon's practices, just poor performance of the manager. However, we cannot blame Amazon for not giving managerial position to one of the contractors, when they have experienced internal candidate for this position. People get bored and like to change roles, and it's important to give them the chance to try something new within organisation or they will leave.

I agree though, that having a 11-month max policy for contractors seems stupid, but it may be caused by legal issues. At least in Europe it would be illegal to have someone work as a temp for extended period of time.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#37

Post by ryanobjc » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:38 PM UTC

pyoung wrote: post #21

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

An outsider was brought in who knew nothing about X-Ray. I was later told the new manger was hired based on management experience. She spent her first week being trained by one of the temps who had been deemed unqualified for the product manager position. After spending a week training the manager, and being her go-to person for the next three weeks whenever there was a problem, he was let go because he reached the m…

re: "management people" That is part of the problem. You will often find that the skills it takes to climb the corporate ladder are not the same as the skills it takes to be a good manager. Management in bigger companies tends to be littered with well connected but incompetent people who are really good at bullshitting and 'looking the part'. This doesn't apply to every manager, but it is common enough that you are a…

The problem boils down to that managers are rewarded by their upper-managers for doing things that make the upper-managers happy, and are rarely rewarded for doing things that make their TEAM BETTER.

So as a result, most managers practice schmoozing the management hierarchy, and not at all about making more effective teams. And then guess which one they get better at? (hint: the one they do more of)

And then which one do they do MORE of?

And the cascading spiral ruins modern corporations.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#38

Post by Yhippa » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

What I've seen at different companies is the idea of using an internal employee vs hiring a temp. You have a temp staff and they take the brunt of the job cuts as they invariably happen. This allows the core workers the flexibility to move around the company in case of redundancies.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#39

Post by Kapura » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #33

Kapura wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon ha…

I have no notion that they're essential to the business in any way. But firing people after 11 months just to avoid a deeper employment relationship is a terrible way to treat people.

I agree that I would hate to be in a temporary employment-type position, but ultimately it's what the market will bear. Amazon doesn't spend money it doesn't feel like it has too, which unfortunately makes its priorities crystal clear in terms of employment. If Amazon has no incentives to hire these people full time, they won't. It's pretty simple.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#40

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #31

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

'Freedom' becomes a slippery concept when you're dealing with contracts of adhesion, though. Non-executive workers have little or no negotiating power over their terms of employment, and the greater the asymmetry the less of a free economic choice it is. Obviously he's not that happy about it or he wouldn't have written this screed.