An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#21

Post by pyoung » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 8:58 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

An outsider was brought in who knew nothing about X-Ray. I was later told the new manger was hired based on management experience. She spent her first week being trained by one of the temps who had been deemed unqualified for the product manager position. After spending a week training the manager, and being her go-to person for the next three weeks whenever there was a problem, he was let go because he reached the m…

re: "management people"

That is part of the problem. You will often find that the skills it takes to climb the corporate ladder are not the same as the skills it takes to be a good manager. Management in bigger companies tends to be littered with well connected but incompetent people who are really good at bullshitting and 'looking the part'. This doesn't apply to every manager, but it is common enough that you are almost guaranteed to work with plenty of them throughout your career.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#22

Post by samstave » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 8:58 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #16

mabbo wrote: post #5

Speaking as a developer at Amazon.com, what contractors? I've never met any, and I only have heard of one who left a while ago. Edit later: Developer contractors at least. I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps.

I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps. Obviously people like that don't deserve any kind of job security and should be fired annually. /sarcasm

Those uppity cleaning staff better not get the balls and gall to make a blog on-line about it either!

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#23

Post by mathattack » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:04 PM UTC

This type of job sounds like it may not be permanent. But when you do perpetual contracting for grunt work, your quality suffers. This type of contracting only works when the best people insist on being contractors and you can't hire them full time.

It would be interesting to hear Amazon's side of the story.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#24

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:06 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #19

anigbrowl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the HR people ever provide any rationale for this? I mean, I know that hiring people full-time creates a bunch of additional costs and liabilities. But did they ever quantify what those costs would be, so that you could weigh them against the projected benefit of a hire, not to mention the opportunity cost of cutting someone loose and hiring a new person, with the resultant drop in productivity? I mean, it's not…

Microsoft got sued in the 90's for not extending retirement plans to its temps. Since then the two track system developed.

This isn't unique to the tech sector, there were companies operating this sort of policy before MS. I'm not asking why, I'm asking whether it is actually economically efficient or whether people just take HR's say-so that it is.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#25

Post by famousactress » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:07 PM UTC

My first experience in a technical position was exactly the same. I was a temp employee at a major computer/printer manufacturer. In their case the policy (law, I think) was that you could work for as a temp for 6 years before you had to take something like at least 6 months off. There were loads of people who'd been temps so long they'd had one or two of these 'vacations' (unpaid, of course).

It's unfortunate. It sets up a nasty little caste system, but my understanding is that it's done not because it produces better work but rather because as a public company it allows to you constantly "right-size" your headcount without firing actual employees, which you'd have to report to your shareholders.

I'm sure at the location I worked at temps out-numbered full time employees by a factor of at least 4-to-1. After being passed up for a couple of full time positions (it was a joke or legal loophole that we were even allowed to apply) the best employees would jump ship and the workforce would maintain a consistent average/below-average pool of pretty apathetic clock-punchers. I don't think that was misunderstood by anyone in a position to control things though.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#26

Post by msg » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:10 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #5

Speaking as a developer at Amazon.com, what contractors? I've never met any, and I only have heard of one who left a while ago. Edit later: Developer contractors at least. I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps.

My org hires contract for various understaffed projects. Often for SDET. Sometimes they make a transition to full time.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#27

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #18

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

An outsider was brought in who knew nothing about X-Ray. I was later told the new manger was hired based on management experience. She spent her first week being trained by one of the temps who had been deemed unqualified for the product manager position. After spending a week training the manager, and being her go-to person for the next three weeks whenever there was a problem, he was let go because he reached the m…

I really wonder how long CEOs and management people in general think this party can go on. The trouble is, many tech-based industries today have little effective competition in the short term. No-one is going to disrupt Amazon and take over "We own on-line sales for the entire universe" because someone made a dumb hiring decision. No-one is going to beat Google out of the online advertising space because they have te…

Very true. I think the Internet accelerates superstar effects to the detriment of the economy as a whole. I hope Alibaba/Taobao decides to leave the Yangtze sooner rather than later.

http://pandodaily.com/2012/08/30/unleashing-the-crocodile-wh...

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#28

Post by garybizzle » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:21 PM UTC

ryanobjc wrote: post #14

I used to work at Amazon, and this is disturbing, but not really surprising. A focus on cost instead of value is a core element at Amazon. I ultimately left because what could be described as a failure to recognize value over the actual cost. 5 years of controlling high-value but high-cost things left my department with a shredded staff. By the time the economy was improving in the 2006-8 timeframe, nearly all my col…

The author also mentions "Although it may seem like the company is saving money — because you don’t have to provide temporary workers with medical coverage or paid vacation time."

I just want to point out that contractors actually cost the company MORE money than employees, on average around $30k/year per worker. I think the main reason contractors are used is because many full-time employees "settle" somewhat and don't have the same drive that contractors do (i.e., contractors feel they have more to prove and are thus more productive). Also, contractors can be fired without any consequences, which is not to be said about employees. But I don't think cost is the main driver here.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#29

Post by Kapura » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:22 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #16

mabbo wrote: post #5

Speaking as a developer at Amazon.com, what contractors? I've never met any, and I only have heard of one who left a while ago. Edit later: Developer contractors at least. I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps.

I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps. Obviously people like that don't deserve any kind of job security and should be fired annually. /sarcasm

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon has any incentive to give a shit about them.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#30

Post by sonabinu » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

marcusf wrote: post #7

cgore wrote: post #3

This is rather strange if it is accurate. Everywhere I've worked where they hired contractors as developers, the company always preferred contract-to-hire, assuming the person worked out well. I've had two jobs that way, 6-12 month contract to full-time regular employee. The only time people didn't transition to full-time is if they sucked, basically a 6-month interview. And sometimes they would go full-time even if…

From the story, the author doesn't sound like a developer.

Agree