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As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

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Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#111

Post by coldtea »

rdl wrote: post #20

Sounds like not "the death of public key encryption" but the golden age of building technical controls into hardware/software which cannot be subverted by the operator, even in the face of a state agent with a gun. Assuming the right tech is developed and deployed, this is going to be far better for everyone in a few years. Yes, it will be shitty for a year or two, but by 2020, if we actually have real technical secu…

>Assuming the right tech is developed and deployed, this is going to be far better for everyone in a few years.

A, the old "let's use technology to solve a political issue" idea.

Sadly, it does not work. For one, the government has all the technology available for it too, including dedicated, full-time paid researchers.

Second, they can outlaw any of those things at whim.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#112

Post by shoeless »

rdl wrote: post #20

Sounds like not "the death of public key encryption" but the golden age of building technical controls into hardware/software which cannot be subverted by the operator, even in the face of a state agent with a gun. Assuming the right tech is developed and deployed, this is going to be far better for everyone in a few years. Yes, it will be shitty for a year or two, but by 2020, if we actually have real technical secu…

Just wondering - will older, but still decent hardware, start to become increasingly valuable since the hardware controls don't exist there? Will the value of my circa 2000 Dell PowerEdge take on new life?

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#113

Post by coldtea »

macspoofing wrote: post #73

Does the Federal government not understand that this (idiotic) mass scale surveillance is bad for business? All the big American companies generate most of their revenue outside of the US. Majority of the user-bases of the big Silicon Valley tech companies are foreign. This only works if there is a level of trust in the American system and American government. What are they thinking?!?!

>Does the Federal government not understand that this (idiotic) mass scale surveillance is bad for business?

Emmm, it's the business interests that ask for those kind of things. You think the politicians operate on a vacuum?

The idea is to get a stable climate where the business interests (multinationals and such) can do as they please, and citizens are afraid.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#114

Post by ahallock »

nhaehnle wrote: post #78
randallsquared wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's rather the other way. The historical record shows that they hardly ever do what I would have preferred. One problem is that the referents for "you" and "your" don't always match during the sentence: "If you [1] are so unshakably convinced that a government full of people you [2] vote for every four years is never going to work in your [3] interests, you [4] have serious problems." 1. the person reading t…

The thing is, for all its supposed power, government is really bad at marketing. People tend to see only what they don't like about government while simultaneously enjoying the benefits from various services that are provided by the government. As in those "get the government out of my medicare" signs that were seen in the US. (Cue the "blah blah markets can do it blah blah" responses - no, I'm sorry, but even econom…

> while simultaneously enjoying the benefits from various services that are provided by the government.

Using these services because there's no practical way not to is just the reality of our system. Taking a few scraps from your masters to survive does not mean you agree with your chains.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#115

Post by chongli »

northernmonkey wrote: post #109
jwoah12 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your usage of the past tense here. This is far from over, and I don't think the public's reaction was tepid.

Tepid? The response has been cooler than that.

If you're talking about the media, what did you expect? The mainstream media is just a mouthpiece for the government at this point.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#116

Post by anovikov »

Nursie wrote: post #92
anovikov wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view of libertarianism is that it's not a movement to 'fight government'. It is just a system of views that once productive forces of society achieve certain level, government at least as we know it will become redundant. And there is little 'new ruler' can do to establish himself if people don't need a ruler.

>> And there is little 'new ruler' can do to establish himself if people don't need a ruler. How charmingly naive! I don't know that people have needed a ruler at many times in history, but there has always been one. A power vacuum almost always results in war, revolution almost always results in war... basically humans like war and leaders. I don't think that will ever go away. We're tribal animals. Even if people d…

Well, if there is little government can do to control (like people using p2p currencies on a massive scale and encrypting their communications), and with production structure not suffering from possibility of monopolism (which we are close to having now), how will the government exercise their control? Of course we will always have some sort of government, but over years, it will become more and more irrelevant, not able to control/regulate things it claims to.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#117

Post by luminiferous »

utnick wrote: post #110
johngalt wrote: post #87

It's a neat argument that the Feds have. If you send traffic unencrypted: 'You have no expectation of privacy, because you're broadcasting information publicly.' Turn on encryption: 'Clearly you have something to hide, and deserve additional scrutiny. It's still not a fourth amendment violation because we are just compelling a business to give us your keys'

Right on, Clearly its also ok for the police to search your apartment at any time as well. You don't own your apartment, an apartment corporation does, so its clearly not a 4th amendment violation

Hey, don't give them any ideas now.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#118

Post by fab13n »

downandout wrote: post #98

This kind of thing makes me think the Snowden disclosures actually emboldened the NSA in some ways. Their nightmare scenario occurred, and nothing happened. Nobody even got fired or "resigned". The public's tepid reaction has brought our nightmare scenario to life - we taught secretive government agencies that they can now do anything they want without fear of public backlash. These kinds of requests can now dramatic…

What you say is true, but misses an important consideration: yesterday, only tinfoil hats believed they couldn't trust third-party companies with their privacy. Today, everyone knows that the only way to have privacy is to handle it personally, from their local computer.

The whole PRISM scheme worked because people supposed the government respected their privacy. Now that it's been proven false, I expect people to use local encryption schemes, were third parties can't give a key they don't have. I expect people to become careful about which certification authority signed their SSL key, and to use self-signed certificates whenever practical. Targeted spying will remain possible, but indiscriminate surveillance PRISM-style would become impractical.

Unless they know how to crack TLS, but we have no reason to believe this as of today.

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#119

Post by ColinWright »

johngalt wrote: post #87

It's a neat argument that the Feds have. If you send traffic unencrypted: 'You have no expectation of privacy, because you're broadcasting information publicly.' Turn on encryption: 'Clearly you have something to hide, and deserve additional scrutiny. It's still not a fourth amendment violation because we are just compelling a business to give us your keys'

Morton's Fork:

    A man living modestly must be saving money and could
    therefore afford taxes, whereas if he was living
    extravagantly then he was obviously rich and could
    still afford them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton%27s_fork

Re: As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption

#120

Post by downandout »

quantumpotato_ wrote: post #103
downandout wrote: post #98

This kind of thing makes me think the Snowden disclosures actually emboldened the NSA in some ways. Their nightmare scenario occurred, and nothing happened. Nobody even got fired or "resigned". The public's tepid reaction has brought our nightmare scenario to life - we taught secretive government agencies that they can now do anything they want without fear of public backlash. These kinds of requests can now dramatic…

Do you think it was planned by the NSA?

I don't, but then anything is possible. They could have invented Snowden in response to a credible threat from someone else that was planning to leak this or other even more sensitive materials. Anybody making similar disclosures today would have a tough time getting any attention because the Snowden story drew so little public outrage.
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