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Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

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Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#81

Post by Mordor »

MarkMc wrote: post #59

I've never understood how these two positions are logically consistent: (1) We do not torture people on principle (2) We use drone strikes that sometimes kill innocent bystanders because the ends justifies the means In the case of torturing someone, you are inflicting only pain (which is not as bad as death) on someone who is probably guilty of a crime (which is not as bad as inflicting pain on someone who is complet…

It would be a mistake to apply principles and logic to war which is, in the end, a political decision.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#82

Post by vastinfest »

jakejake wrote: post #24
rdtsc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable. Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things ha…

That's really interesting to hear the "other side" as it were. I think the US mentality is to simply not tell you anything about the other county so that you don't develop any sort of personal feelings. I was a child during the cold war, but I actually could not tell you one thing about any Russian person that I was told during that time, aside from the "evil" leaders hated our way of life and how they desperately wa…

I think it's just easier to paint yourself as good guys when you can leverage "us" vs "them" mentality. During cold war that was USA vs USSR, now its USA vs terrorists. Real beuty of that is that it works from boths sides - USA hated commies from USSR, USSR hated evil capitalists from USA. Now same thinking can be applied to both USA and terrorists (when you think about it - USA has invaded couple countries and is actively bulying rest of the world into shape). During cold war there was USSR to keep USA in check so to say. Now there's USA and some people without any real resources behind them fighting out of idea. Even sadder thing - both sides have people who believe all that "we" are good guys are absolutely true. I was born in USSR couple of years before collapse (I don't remember anything solid myself), but to this day my parents say that "then" things were better, everybody had jobs, everybody was happy (partly because vodka was water cheap, partly because nobody told anybody what really happened in places where happened things like biological or nuclear weapons manufacture). I can guarrantee you same exact things happened over in the USA. When I say "happened" i really mean "happens".. I can't currently decide who next will stomp over my country..

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#83

Post by foobarbazqux »

coldtea wrote: post #76
CoffeeDregs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. For me, the most depressing part is that I, as a Republican [not a retard "movement" conservative, but a non-Progressive [yes, I believe in Climate Change]], voted for Obama and his message of transparency. I shouldn't have "believed" in a politician, but I did. Crazy time: liberal friends are now defending the NSA's actions... Cats and dogs are living together in peace. WTF?

Well, it was not like Republican and Democrat parties were really apart in the first place. One is left of centre, the other is right of centre. The both agree on the centre. They have some token issues to ramp up their followers (gay marriage on one side, religion on the other, etc), but no matter who is in power the country works more or less the same for 90% of issues. Does anyone feel like a huge change is happen…

One is right of center, the other is even more right of center, if you consider parties in other countries.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#84

Post by semiprivate »

These drones make us terrorists. Never knowing if the next time you or your children go outside will be the time they get destroyed by a faceless, human-less, bomb slinging, heat sensing machine in the sky is fucking terror. We're fighting terror with terror.

No matter what happens, terror has won. We as a nation are fucking terrorists.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#85

Post by skore »

MarkMc wrote: post #59

I've never understood how these two positions are logically consistent: (1) We do not torture people on principle (2) We use drone strikes that sometimes kill innocent bystanders because the ends justifies the means In the case of torturing someone, you are inflicting only pain (which is not as bad as death) on someone who is probably guilty of a crime (which is not as bad as inflicting pain on someone who is complet…

> In the case of torturing someone, you are inflicting only pain (which is not as bad as death) on someone who is probably guilty of a crime (which is not as bad as inflicting pain on someone who is completely innocent).

I'm afraid it's more complicated than that. I get that you're trying to draw a contrast and use "their version of things", but "their version" is completely flawed to the point of misinformation.

Torture can be so bad that it destroys a person psychologically. For some people who were tortured, they might as well be dead.

Likewise - people who are being tortured aren't "probably" guilty of a crime. Actually, they probably aren't. They just happen to know a small bit about somebody who is guilty of a crime[0]. Put differently: You don't torture the hardened criminals, because they are likely prepared for it. You torture people who are (mostly) civilians because they are weak and if they know something, they'll talk. For a civilian, torture means ripping them away from their life, making them long to go back. For a criminal, torture is a likely outcome of what they do anyways.

Torture is just another way in which the gift of collateral damage is brought to innocent people. War, in all of its facets, is waged against civilians.

Finally - torture is only unreliable in certain areas. It is completely unreliable in the contrast you draw - applied on hardened criminals who are high value targets in an armed conflict. But it succeeds beautifully in the two areas that it was designed for: terrorizing civilians and giving military psychos a plaything to destroy.

[0]This is actually the most important argument against "I have nothing to hide".

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#86

Post by peterkelly »

moskie wrote: post #65
peterkelly wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What sort of military intervention should we use? We could send in soldiers to try and arrest the terrorists, but that is slow, risky, and expensive (we need holding facilities, transportation, etc.) Drones are the obvious alternative. Not only are they cheap, they are pose about zero risk to US personnel" So what you're saying is that the lives of US personnel are more valuable than that of innocent Pakistani civ…

> So what you're saying is that the lives of US personnel are more valuable than that of innocent Pakistani civilians, including the 94 children cited in the report? I think the point is that the best option is the one that you would predict results in the fewest amount of deaths. Do you think the option of sending in soldiers would definitely result in fewer deaths? Now, I'm much more inclined to agree with the idea…

I don't buy the notion that the only two choices are invading Pakistan or using drones.

I'm far from an expert on these matters. But I imagine there'd be other options (working with local authorities, with coercion at the government level if necessary) that would be better than either of the above two.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#87

Post by andybak »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #83
coldtea wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it was not like Republican and Democrat parties were really apart in the first place. One is left of centre, the other is right of centre. The both agree on the centre. They have some token issues to ramp up their followers (gay marriage on one side, religion on the other, etc), but no matter who is in power the country works more or less the same for 90% of issues. Does anyone feel like a huge change is happen…

One is right of center, the other is even more right of center, if you consider parties in other countries.

Yep. Brit here. We tend to laugh when we hear the Democrats described as 'Center-left'.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#88

Post by derefr »

smky80 wrote: post #77
mpyne wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media. Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. I mean, I sort of agree with your overall point, but if you want to see what 'domestic terrorists' could do before the Inte…

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, Occupy was subverted from the inside much like the Tea Party. The fact that George Soros was involved is a big clue. The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world…

> The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis.

Don't attribute to malice, stupidity. Dissolution of purpose is just what tends to happen when a movement gets popular as a fad for people to join--people who are there just to be cool, and to maybe be told what to do and help a tiny little bit--but with no particular greater goals in mind. You can't get people on-board with a specific purpose they don't care for, but maybe if you tell them some vague agreeable bullshit, they'll join. Guess what? Now all your movement is there for is vague agreeable bullshit.

It was particularly bad with Occupy because the core members had a weird fetish for allowing the movement to be steered democratically--and so they basically asked what all the people who didn't care all that much wanted to do, took an average, and did nothing.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#89

Post by jheriko »

this stuff is not hidden... and this 'leaked report' is a distraction from the even worse truth. its not hard to find figures from reputable sources if one goes looking, and in a large part of the world its common knowledge that this sort of thing is perpetrated by the US... :/

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#90

Post by toble »

peterkelly wrote: post #45

Here's an idea. Now this might sound a bit crazy, but hear me out: How about working to prevent terrorism by not murdering innocent civilians in other countries and inciting massive hatred towards the US from those affected and their fellow countrymen? Can you imagine what would happen if another country was carrying out drone strikes in the US, with similar numbers of casualties?

Problem is, the USA is geared towards those sorts of aggressive methods because of the huge military infrastructure. The solution is to constantly cut the budget and make that aspect less influential.
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