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Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

salon.com

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Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#71

Post by quattrofan »

potatolicious wrote: post #8
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

Not only is it painful to watch this, it's even more painful to think about how far we've fallen, and how quickly. It wasn't that long ago where most mainstream US media sources could be trusted to provide insightful, fact-checked journalism.

Its been at least 20 years since that was the case, once large corps started buying up all the local TV, that was the beginning of the end.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#72

Post by quattrofan »

bloaf wrote: post #44

Most people I see comfortably opining on drone strikes seem to be doing so without the discomfort of thinking the issue through. My thought process is this: Say the US were to find evidence that a Canadian terrorist group was planning an attack on the Joe Louis Arena. We would inform the Canadian government who would then go, arrest the terrorists and put them on trial. This seems to be what drone critics think shoul…

"US government is responsible for US citizen" which has now decided it can assassinate with inpunity as well: http://weaselzippers.us/2013/07/20/federal-judge-challenges-...

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#73

Post by coldtea »

spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

>Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did.

Well, it lied alright and on a huge scale. The establishment dropped a-bombs on civillians with BS pretexes (one can still find them on party line history books, from where lots of people get their official version of wisdom), invaded tons of countries in the name of "democracy" (that is, resources and influence), from Vietnam to Panama, established dictatorships (e.g the toppling of Iran's legitimate government back in the fifties), persecuted people in the McCarthy era, stomped on the blacks and civil rights movement, etc.

The difference with the USSR is that it wasn't totalitarian inside the country. USSR was like 1984, US was like Brave New World.

>It's painful to watch a government that instituted the Marshall Plan actively destroy its credibility like this

Well, the Marshall Plan was (among other stated goals) a way to extract influence upon the broken Europe, pay the right people at the right places, and ascert the top dog position.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#74

Post by coldtea »

mpyne wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable. Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things ha…

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media. Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. I mean, I sort of agree with your overall point, but if you want to see what 'domestic terrorists' could do before the Inte…

>Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'.

Because "too liberal" for Fox just meant "too democrat". Hardly something that absolves MSM from the BS they are.

MSM were the same officially santioned, partisan and corrupted sources, pre and after Fox.

With the exception of some smaller outlets and the rare honest and piercing journalist, but that's not mainstream anymore.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#75

Post by ferdo »

anigbrowl wrote: post #56
rdtsc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". Well, take a number, guys, you can get in line with practically the whole rest of the country. I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about i…

I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about it. A bunch of people without a goal, disorganized, non-violent, and they bothered to label them as terrorist. Good Lord. What if they were more organized. What would those watching them be doing? Assassinating…

That's not quite accurate.

“These documents show that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security are treating protests against the corporate and banking structure of America as potential criminal and terrorist activity. These documents also show these federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America.”

> http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#76

Post by coldtea »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #13
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

Agreed. For me, the most depressing part is that I, as a Republican [not a retard "movement" conservative, but a non-Progressive [yes, I believe in Climate Change]], voted for Obama and his message of transparency. I shouldn't have "believed" in a politician, but I did. Crazy time: liberal friends are now defending the NSA's actions... Cats and dogs are living together in peace. WTF?

Well, it was not like Republican and Democrat parties were really apart in the first place.

One is left of centre, the other is right of centre. The both agree on the centre. They have some token issues to ramp up their followers (gay marriage on one side, religion on the other, etc), but no matter who is in power the country works more or less the same for 90% of issues.

Does anyone feel like a huge change is happening in his everyday life and the workings of the country, when the other party comes into power after some time?

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#77

Post by smky80 »

mpyne wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable. Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things ha…

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media. Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. I mean, I sort of agree with your overall point, but if you want to see what 'domestic terrorists' could do before the Inte…

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose,

Occupy was subverted from the inside much like the Tea Party. The fact that George Soros was involved is a big clue.

The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis.

Again, the role the media plays is one of spreading confusion and disorder. You have a large number of low-power people with a shared common interest -- preventing themselves from being "farmed" by a parasitic financial system -- and if they could be coordinated and work together, would suddenly become a powerful mass. The media works to prevent that coordination by spreading confusion as to the aims of the group, or even better getting the masses to fight amongst themselves.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#78

Post by coldtea »

jaebrown wrote: post #49

Some of the comments on Salon are just sad. A death is a death. Whether it's 900 or 2, drone strikes that kill innocent civilians are unacceptable. Trying to justify it by saying that there is only a small death toll number is inhumane. We can not say are objective is to protect innocent life and then take innocent life. Giving precedent to American life makes us and NATO forces seem like evil pretentious bastards. W…

>Some of the comments on Salon are just sad. A death is a death. Whether it's 900 or 2, drone strikes that kill innocent civilians are unacceptable. Trying to justify it by saying that there is only a small death toll number is inhumane.

It's because those assholes didn't have the same thing happen to them, much less frequently.

So they have the luxury to discuss it philosophically.

They also probably feel that the others are less human than their families and friends, being in the third world and all.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#79

Post by AnthonBerg »

peterkelly wrote: post #45

Here's an idea. Now this might sound a bit crazy, but hear me out: How about working to prevent terrorism by not murdering innocent civilians in other countries and inciting massive hatred towards the US from those affected and their fellow countrymen? Can you imagine what would happen if another country was carrying out drone strikes in the US, with similar numbers of casualties?

The current course of action in the name of peace is IMO so illogical that I worry that they might be actively mongering war. A passive disregard for war as consequences is the more likely reason though - which isn't much better.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#80

Post by AnthonBerg »

MarkMc wrote: post #59

I've never understood how these two positions are logically consistent: (1) We do not torture people on principle (2) We use drone strikes that sometimes kill innocent bystanders because the ends justifies the means In the case of torturing someone, you are inflicting only pain (which is not as bad as death) on someone who is probably guilty of a crime (which is not as bad as inflicting pain on someone who is complet…

Let's think on this - what incentive is there for the United States' to behave in a logically consistent manner? (Let alone ethical or humane.)

What incentive could there be? Can? Might? What would we want to exist? How?

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