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Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

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Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#31

Post by mpyne »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #16
bloaf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military does not give trials to the people it kills. Drone strikes are a military action.

Kind of like how congress doesn't need to approve things that are "armed conflicts" as opposed to "wars"? Calling killing civilians "military action" doesn't make it not killing civilians.

Congress has approved this "armed conflict". Though, it's not actually legally clear that the President may not use any military force anywhere without Congress's say so.

> Calling killing civilians "military action" doesn't make it not killing civilians.

Obviously, but that is true for essentially every war ever. It's one of the reasons war is bad, if it only affected those who volunteered for it it would simply be another sporting event...

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#32

Post by wiml »

DannyBee wrote: post #2

My recollection is the CIA considers any military aged males in the area of a strike to be enemy combatants, which could be one cause for significantly different numbers. Here we go: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in... "It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a stri…

That NYT article you linked to came to mind when I was reading this link as well, especially this quote from the Pakistani administration:

"In the media, they said it was all children. They were absolutely wrong. There may have been some collateral damage of some children but they were not children at all, they were all militants doing training inside."

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#33

Post by TempleOS »

God is perfectly just. Wait for it.

God says... boink eateth boldness name's strengthless instances deliver clothed gross-hearted flow commenders sciences described shortly meddle lentiles birth do_I_have_to preserve GUTENBERG-TM likely abide THIS dully leaning occur fallacies plausibility createst intellectual Fish

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#35

Post by mpyne »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #22
bloaf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a war in which no civilians died. It's easy to use weasel words like "indiscriminate," its hard to be responsible for people's lives. "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee

>Show me a war in which no civilians died. Show me a war in which these civilians died. As far as i remember there no war has been declared between USA and Pakistan. So these civilians were killed outside of war zone.

The various international laws and treaties covering the Law of Armed Conflict actually allow for a neutral country to permit military action against unlawful combatants that have taken refuge in their territory. There is no need for them to be camping out in a 'war zone' with a 'Please Bomb Me' sign hooked up to their building.

Otherwise, what legal basis would nations have for taking military action against pirates on the high seas (the other famous example of non-state actors at war with nations)?

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#37

Post by _delirium »

mpyne wrote: post #35
VladRussian2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Show me a war in which no civilians died. Show me a war in which these civilians died. As far as i remember there no war has been declared between USA and Pakistan. So these civilians were killed outside of war zone.

The various international laws and treaties covering the Law of Armed Conflict actually allow for a neutral country to permit military action against unlawful combatants that have taken refuge in their territory. There is no need for them to be camping out in a 'war zone' with a 'Please Bomb Me' sign hooked up to their building. Otherwise, what legal basis would nations have for taking military action against pirates…

Pakistan claims they don't permit the strikes, fwiw, although they seem to de facto go along with them, and may secretly consent. Not that that necessarily makes a difference either way.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#38

Post by _delirium »

bloaf wrote: post #26
zachrose wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then so too are gang shootings, domestic murder, and terrorism itself?

Gangs, civilians, and terrorists are not governmental entities and therefore not military. A state-sanctioned terrorist attack would likely be considered a military action by that state. Organized violence against a foreign country by citizens of another is also referred to as military (e.g. [1]) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_%28military%29

> A state-sanctioned terrorist attack would likely be considered a military action by that state.

The U.S., at least, claims that it wouldn't be. According to the U.S., state-sanctioned terrorism is still terrorism, not legitimate military action, and a violation of international law. Therefore the U.S. maintains a list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism", countries that it alleges engage in such unlawful tactics, either directly or via proxies. For example, it placed Libya on the list after the Lockerbie bombing.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#40

Post by smutticus »

D9u wrote: post #19

One would expect better from a nation whose president was a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Why? The Nobel committe gave Henry Kissinger that same prize and he oversaw the invasion of Cambodia. An invasion that eventually led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge and the deaths of over 1 million Cambodians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu

I don't think we should place too much faith in these Nobel folks getting it right much of the time.

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