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Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

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Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#21

Post by clicks »

potatolicious wrote: post #8
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

Not only is it painful to watch this, it's even more painful to think about how far we've fallen, and how quickly. It wasn't that long ago where most mainstream US media sources could be trusted to provide insightful, fact-checked journalism.

And yet I still think the reason it happened was not because of gov't intricately and carefully orchestrating things with great forethought, it happened because media corporations went after easy profit and found out that pandering to the religious right was an easy and worthwhile thing to do to bring in the money.

Of course it isn't as if gov't isn't in on it, it is -- but not it ways that people think. They're doing it more subtly:

"The major exception here is the Department of Defense, which has an ‘open’ but barely publicized relationship with Tinsel Town, whereby, in exchange for advice, men and invaluable equipment, such as aircraft carriers and helicopters, the Pentagon routinely demands flattering script alterations."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/lights-camera-covert-action-the...

http://original.antiwar.com/sean-a-mcelwee/2013/04/28/propag...

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#22

Post by VladRussian2 »

bloaf wrote: post #18
VladRussian2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

indiscriminant killing of civilians is a war crime, not a military action.

Show me a war in which no civilians died. It's easy to use weasel words like "indiscriminate," its hard to be responsible for people's lives. "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee

>Show me a war in which no civilians died.

Show me a war in which these civilians died. As far as i remember there no war has been declared between USA and Pakistan. So these civilians were killed outside of war zone.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#23

Post by zachrose »

bloaf wrote: post #20
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A part of drone strikes are done by CIA pilots at Langley. I think you are being generous with "military, does this and thus it is ok". But no matter how generous you are, stretching "military" for CIA agents at Langely who kill kids herding goats by day and pick up their kids for soccer practice in the evening is a little too silly for my taste.

The CIA explicitly has no law enforcement capability. Their killing therefore does not represent the enforcement of any law and as such does not require a trial. Their killing is therefore a military action.

Then so too are gang shootings, domestic murder, and terrorism itself?

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#24

Post by jakejake »

rdtsc wrote: post #7
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable. Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things ha…

That's really interesting to hear the "other side" as it were. I think the US mentality is to simply not tell you anything about the other county so that you don't develop any sort of personal feelings.

I was a child during the cold war, but I actually could not tell you one thing about any Russian person that I was told during that time, aside from the "evil" leaders hated our way of life and how they desperately wanted to destroy us.

Unfortunately I think that still works - it's still not that unusual to hear about how terrorist hate our freedom, want to take away our freedom, etc. If you have any interesting in understanding why such thing may be true - you have to go out of your way to find news about it.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#25

Post by vacri »

potatolicious wrote: post #8
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

Not only is it painful to watch this, it's even more painful to think about how far we've fallen, and how quickly. It wasn't that long ago where most mainstream US media sources could be trusted to provide insightful, fact-checked journalism.

The internet killed fact-checkers. In order to beat the 24-hour news cycle, reports have to be done asap, and fact-checking just gets in the way. Removing fact-checking is just a risk management strategy, methinks, as sure you'll lose out from time to time, but overall you'll be so much faster!.

I lament the loss of fact-checking, and it pains me to see errors in professional services that should be picked up be even first-year tertiary students.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#26

Post by bloaf »

zachrose wrote: post #23
bloaf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA explicitly has no law enforcement capability. Their killing therefore does not represent the enforcement of any law and as such does not require a trial. Their killing is therefore a military action.

Then so too are gang shootings, domestic murder, and terrorism itself?

Gangs, civilians, and terrorists are not governmental entities and therefore not military. A state-sanctioned terrorist attack would likely be considered a military action by that state. Organized violence against a foreign country by citizens of another is also referred to as military (e.g. [1])

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_%28military%29

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#27

Post by Volpe »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #22
bloaf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a war in which no civilians died. It's easy to use weasel words like "indiscriminate," its hard to be responsible for people's lives. "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee

>Show me a war in which no civilians died. Show me a war in which these civilians died. As far as i remember there no war has been declared between USA and Pakistan. So these civilians were killed outside of war zone.

Exactly, also the more well known attack in Yemen. Also not a war zone.

Firing missiles on civilians, or "combatants" that aren't engaged in any conflict with you is a war crime.

Would you accept this, if the US fired a missile into a Canadian cafe because they thought a terrorist was in there and everyone around him must ALSO be a terrorist (and thus an enemy combatant)?

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#29

Post by mpyne »

rdtsc wrote: post #7
spodek wrote: post #3

Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…

I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable. Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things ha…

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media.

Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'.

I mean, I sort of agree with your overall point, but if you want to see what 'domestic terrorists' could do before the Internet then you need not look any further than Weather Underground (70s-80s) or the various radical right-wing organizations that hit their peak in the 90s with the Oklahoma City bombing.

You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". Well, take a number, guys, you can get in line with practically the whole rest of the country.

But don't try to pin that on suppression of alternative media. Alternative media is out there, and it's been out there. The technology used to spread the message has changed, but the message has always been available. It's just that no one actually cares.

Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes

#30

Post by mladenkovacevic »

DannyBee wrote: post #2

My recollection is the CIA considers any military aged males in the area of a strike to be enemy combatants, which could be one cause for significantly different numbers. Here we go: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in... "It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a stri…

The scary part is that this line of thinking is not entirely untrue seeing as civilian casualties have a way of radicalizing young men in search of revenge.

The REALLY scary part where America goes from being a misguided but well-intentioned brute to a completely evil, opportunistic warmonger is when you think about the data that the US intelligence and military complex has access to. Don't they know that their war is creating more enemy combatants with each and every civilian casualty, and if they know that then why are they steadfastly continuing with their campaign as if it's actually producing positive results.

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