In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life • Hacker News Board

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#101

Post by jurassic » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #84

rdouble wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't notice your reply otherwise I wouldn't have deleted my post. In my home town in northwestern MN there is an agricultural experiment station which paid $35,000 for a programming job a couple years ago. I made a spreadsheet and even as a single guy with my car paid off I'd only be able to save about $700 a month on that salary. And that's as a renter. Granted, heating costs are much more expensive in northwest…

$35k individual income is solidly middle class. If your wife works and makes $20k, you're at the median household income.

For some weird definition of "middle", I guess. "Middle class" is a designation without meaning, the kind of label that nearly everyone is eager to claim for themselves. Hardly anybody but the most indigent will admit they are poor, because in the US it's like admitting a moral failure. Otherwise you'd be middle class, just like everyone else.

To me, referring to a "middle" when the distribution looks like this is not very useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_Annual_Ho...

Is the median $55k household in the US reasonably comfortable, able to have a family and buy a home without frequent financial stress over expenses like buying groceries, filling up the tank, or paying the water bill? If it's true that most Americans could not quickly produce $2000 in an emergency, I find that hard to believe. $55k DINKs are doing okay, but add a couple babies to the mix (not unreasonable for a "solidly middle class" family), and I think you're in for a rough time if you're saving for college and retirement like you ought.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_22490345/kline-americas...

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#102

Post by axus » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:40 PM UTC

narrowingorbits wrote: post #92

ambiate wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in Hattiesburg, MS, innovation was stagnant. There were no technology related jobs other than Tech Support at Comcast(who I regarded as pure evil at the time). People do not want to leave Hattiesburg. It is completely foreign to them. They want to marry young, have children, and stay within a few blocks of their family. Move to California? You're going to fall into the ocean. Move to New York? Too much cit…

This attitude--which I more often than not share with you--suffers strongly of confirmation bias and a lack of empathy. You, we, tend to believe that the priorities we've chosen are better than those of everyone else, and are obviously so. Pursuing knowledge, technology, wealth, is of course a higher aim than raising a family. It's obvious, right? But it's not. They choose "to follow the culture of the community" bec…

The people he left behind may be happy and successful on their own terms, but they are not "socially mobile". It seems that social mobility depends on the culture of the area more than the cost of living.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#103

Post by mkr-hn » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:42 PM UTC

chrisgd wrote: post #85

Arjuna wrote: post #83

I was born and grew up in WV. As many of you know, it is a poor state. We grew up on powdered milk. Most of my ancestors either went into chemical production (a local term from where I grew up is the "Chemical Valley", although most of that production and associated jobs are gone now) or slipped into the mines to work black gold [1]. We didn't have a lot, and there was no way that we could afford a computer. However,…

A great story, very proud of what you have accomplished and you should be too. I would just mention that your parents sound like they are incredibly supportive and were encouraging of your dreams. Not everyone has that.

It also helped to have neighbors who could afford to pay someone to cut their grass and shovel their snow.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#104

Post by narrowingorbits » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:47 PM UTC

ambiate wrote: post #99

narrowingorbits wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude--which I more often than not share with you--suffers strongly of confirmation bias and a lack of empathy. You, we, tend to believe that the priorities we've chosen are better than those of everyone else, and are obviously so. Pursuing knowledge, technology, wealth, is of course a higher aim than raising a family. It's obvious, right? But it's not. They choose "to follow the culture of the community" bec…

I can really appreciate this opinion of my comment. It is truly genuine and a great analysis! There is much more truth to your words than I would like to admit in other facets of my life. Their priority is indeed far from mine. Many times, I find it hard to empathize and easier to just point the finger at the obvious choices they have made. Yet, there is a community type punishment and resentment for people who fall…

And I guess that's the important dichotomy here. There are many, many choices that people can make in life that are qualitatively neutral. For instance, the decision of those female Ph.D.s to value marriage over a career utilizing their education. It saddens you, because it does not mesh with your priorities, and so it seems like a bad choice. But qualitatively, it's just a difference of taste and preference.

But there are certainly choices that are qualitatively worse. Such as building, or letting yourself be dragged down by communities that destroy you with shame, racism, classism, politics, etc. Or, as you pointed out, the choice to ignore the imperative to create a foundation for one's family, to have some way to provide, if family is your priority. Because that is actually a failure of their own priorities as well.

We've just got to not muddle those types of choices too much. Our preferences vs. other's preferences vs. truly damaging choices.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#105

Post by narrowingorbits » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:49 PM UTC

axus wrote: post #102

narrowingorbits wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude--which I more often than not share with you--suffers strongly of confirmation bias and a lack of empathy. You, we, tend to believe that the priorities we've chosen are better than those of everyone else, and are obviously so. Pursuing knowledge, technology, wealth, is of course a higher aim than raising a family. It's obvious, right? But it's not. They choose "to follow the culture of the community" bec…

The people he left behind may be happy and successful on their own terms, but they are not "socially mobile". It seems that social mobility depends on the culture of the area more than the cost of living.

Sure, but I guess a question, then, is whether "social mobility" is the highest end in and of itself.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#106

Post by wtvanhest » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:50 PM UTC

wf wrote: post #3

I'm sure some of you saw it because it's on page two (and linked in the article)-- but the New York Times has imo a much better article on this: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/business/in-climbing-incom...

The areas on that map which demonstrate the highest gain in rising income between generations are almost exclusively in areas with either high natural gas reserves or high oil reserves.

The middle tier is mainly made up of areas where moving from a suburb to a major city does not involve getting on a plane to visit relatives. (Chicago being the exception, not sure why, maybe its proximity to Michigan?).

The lowest areas are primarily the deed south without access to oil/nat gas reserves. The deep south has a triple challenge of low income to reinvest in to school systems, limited opportunities or areas near Detroit which have seen a complete collapse of jobs.

This map is basically a heat map of areas which saw rapid changes to their underlying economies because of forces they could not control.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#107

Post by beat » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #58

beat wrote: post #37

As someone born in the bottom fifth who worked up into the top fifth, a big part of it is actively escaping childhood culture and that culture's expectations. When I grew up, I didn't know anyone wealthy or successful - I met them when I was an adult. Good role models are critical for kids' sense of scope and possibility. Then again, as a political liberal, I tend to say an un-liberal thing when talking about income…

> As someone born in the bottom fifth who worked up into the top fifth, a big part of it is actively escaping childhood culture and that culture's expectations. When I grew up, I didn't know anyone wealthy or successful - I met them when I was an adult. Good role models are critical for kids' sense of scope and possibility. I don't think I could have said it better. I too grew up relatively poor, in a hick area 30 mi…

Makes me think of another useful piece of advice... marry well. I married into upper middle class as well, and my wife has different and useful values.

But yes, the short-term thinking and resentment of education among the poor is kind of amazing and appalling. My father, an extremely intelligent and charismatic man, called them "educated mow-rons" (you really need to capture that exaggerated accent). He worked for rich men, but had nothing but contempt for them. If he had applied himself productively, he could have been very successful and wealthy. Instead, his life was a total failure due to shortsighted and self-destructive behavior. If there's one thing I learned from watching him, it's the difference between working hard and working smart.

Now, I see my sister choosing to live in the redneck boondocks, constantly ground down by poverty and bad decisions. She's also very bright and could have been successful in another context, but she likes her country living. Unfortunately, she's surrounded by idiots. Everyone with that critical combination of talent and ambition simply leaves rural America and goes somewhere that they have a chance.

Recently, she tried to talk me into investing in a business idea she had - something that, done right, could turn into a comfortable living. But instead, she and her (even brighter) daughter polished up a bunch of wishful-thinking hyperoptimized numbers to convince themselves they could make six figures at what I think is a $30k business, devised a terrible plan to get there, and then got all butt-hurt whenever my other sister and me tried to make it realistic. And of course, she resents me for not tossing her $10k to squander. Such is the life of poverty - even otherwise intelligent people get into a cycle of terrible decisions.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#108

Post by justindz » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #83

I was born and grew up in WV. As many of you know, it is a poor state. We grew up on powdered milk. Most of my ancestors either went into chemical production (a local term from where I grew up is the "Chemical Valley", although most of that production and associated jobs are gone now) or slipped into the mines to work black gold [1]. We didn't have a lot, and there was no way that we could afford a computer. However,…

Born, raised and educated entirely in West Virginia. Currently a Director of Product Management at a DC tech company. My dad, who worked for the National Park Service for 35 years (retiring last month) brought home a 25Mhz "shades of grey" decommissioned laptop for me to play with in Jr. High. The rest is history. If I look back on that history, I definitely see myself being incredibly lucky, but also putting myself in the position to capitalize on every break that I got. At any rate, thanks for sharing. Montani Semper Liberi.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#109

Post by gojomo » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 7:04 PM UTC

JRobertson wrote: post #74

mindcrime wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sound very similar to where I grew up. I'm also from a "white trash" rural Southern area. And I grew up near the beach, so you saw huge contrast between the million dollar+ beach houses at the private end of the beach, and the rest of my county which was mostly rural, tobacco farms, timber logging for the paper companies, and Green Swamp[1]. I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship…

> Uuuggghh... "follow God"... uggh. Makes me want to puke. I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a cult, no better than any of the others, just bigger. And due to its prevalence and ubiquity, more damaging. Those kinds of comments belong on /r/athiesm not here. It's one thing to disagree with the choice of the person, the teachings of a particular branch, or even the idea of a God. But statements like…

While generally I agree with you, in this particular thread people are sharing personal, impressionistic origin stories.

He's providing colorful detail, a small part of a larger story, and offering a bit of emotional support for the earlier commenter's attitude. (He's not proselytizing, or inviting anti-/pro-religion as a main topic, though there's always a risk someone else will take it that way.)

I would suggest that in such a thread, there should be more space for heartfelt honesty, rather than self-censorship-for-the-sake-of-decorum-and-equanimity. There's a time and place for all styles and topics of communication... and it can shift in just a single screen or replying under a different parent comment.

Re: In America, Where You're Born Is Correlated With How Far You'll Go In Life

#110

Post by PhasmaFelis » Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 7:09 PM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #83

I was born and grew up in WV. As many of you know, it is a poor state. We grew up on powdered milk. Most of my ancestors either went into chemical production (a local term from where I grew up is the "Chemical Valley", although most of that production and associated jobs are gone now) or slipped into the mines to work black gold [1]. We didn't have a lot, and there was no way that we could afford a computer. However,…

The C64 was my first computer too. I was 7 at the time, and 28 years later I'm still coding, only now I'm getting paid for it. Wonderful, wonderful machine, and I have the fondest memories of it.

(Actually ours was an SX-64, the ill-fated portable version, which did so poorly that my parents got one from a discount catalog for $50 in 1985, only a year after it debuted at $1000. Folks didn't know what they were missing! Years later we got a full-size C64, and when that broke down, a C128. As far as I know, the SX works fine to this day.)