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Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

articles.latimes.com

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Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#71

Post by stephengillie »

danso wrote: post #12
edw519 wrote: post #9

According to a recent domestic survey, average Yugoslavs work efficiently for only half of their eight-hour workday. The rest of the time is spent reading newspapers, conducting private business or having interminable private chats with colleagues over coffee. According to a recent domestic survey, average I.T. managers work efficiently for only 10% of their eight-hour workday. The rest of the time is spent reading e…

I was just thinking, it's been a loooooong time since I've had a job that required eight straight hours of on-task work...the only jobs that fit the bill were in high school, working for a deli counter and as a roofer. Since then, it's been office jobs that were more like 6 hours of work, 4 hours of idleness/thinking time.

Are you "paid to be pingable"?

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#72

Post by moocowduckquack »

muyuu wrote: post #65
lucisferre wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting how quickly you jumped to the conclusion that "socialism" is to blame.

It's no coincidence that all (ex-)paternalistic nanny States show this kind of problem.

That's bollocks. There are many post communist countries which have a strong cultural work ethic. Try making that allegation to the Polish and see how far you get.

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#73

Post by vacri »

muyuu wrote: post #65
lucisferre wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting how quickly you jumped to the conclusion that "socialism" is to blame.

It's no coincidence that all (ex-)paternalistic nanny States show this kind of problem.

Like China, the socialist engine-room of the world? No concept of a work ethic there?

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#74

Post by vacri »

CWIZO wrote: post #55
refurb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter? I've heard that arguememt for other industries, that workers should be paid a wage that they can afford the product they are making. I've never understood it though.

That just can't work. Imagine every Ferrari worker being able to afford a Ferrari. What would that mean for a price of a Ferrari, eh? The price would have to go up, and then the wages, and then the prices and so on.

Ferrari is quite an outlier, though.

In any case, super-luxury cars are more and more being built by robots anyway...

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#76

Post by liquidcool »

mtrimpe wrote: post #69
tokenadult wrote: post #64

I really liked this article. It's startling to someone as old as I am to realize that many Hacker News participants are too young to remember Yugoslavia as an intact country. In general, the transition from regimes in eastern Europe controlled by national Communist parties (whether part of the Warsaw Pact or not) to the current melange of national governments in a larger number of countries in that region is already…

That reminds me of how one of my favourite memories of the Czech Republic was seeing young couples having romantic dinner dates in McDonalds. It actually took me several weeks to understand that to them the McDonalds was a special place; an affordable restaurant with an air of foreign mystique ...

Was that also in the 80's? I'm in Prague now and I don't think anyone sees McD as special. Starbucks seems to have that appeal, although I find Costa Coffee much better. But I spent May in Kyiv and they love McDonald's there. I was told it's seen as a very good deal.

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#77

Post by dimfox »

vacri wrote: post #73
muyuu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no coincidence that all (ex-)paternalistic nanny States show this kind of problem.

Like China, the socialist engine-room of the world? No concept of a work ethic there?

Born and raised in China, I can testify that working ethic was bad before they adopted market economics. What skylan_q described was happening in China as well.

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#78

Post by m4x »

swalsh wrote: post #13
unimpressive wrote: post #2

I remember some people on HN saying that having the right to a job would be better than having a minimum income. As I understand it the various communist countries are an excellent case study in why this is a bad idea.

I think a minimum income is a good idea in a society where there's little demand for unskilled labor. As long as the basic income is priced below the average wage of skilled labor, people will still have incentives to find employment... but those that can't, still have a minimum quality of life that should be expected in the first world.

New Zealand (and probably many other nations) provides a system similar to this where you either have a job and earn as much as you're able (based on negotiating skill and to some extent actual job skill) or you are unemployed and receive a benefit which is supposed to cover your basic living costs.

Without defrauding the system, you are better off getting a job as it provides you with a better income. Despite this, there are still a significant number of people who would rather remain unemployed than contribute productively to society. Many of them defraud the system or engage in crime to boost their income.

I think I would rather see the government guaranteeing a basic job rather than offering benefits for any length of time. Supporting somebody legitimately between jobs is fine. Somebody who hasn't worked in a year should be sent to a labour camp until they decide to find better employment.

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#79

Post by desireco42 »

I lived in Yugoslavia and are saddened to see it being destroyed, but, now living in US, it will be 10 yrs, I see a lot of things that remind me of old Yugoslavia. Americans are especially defensive when you point out those things, unlike people in Yugoslavia which had less illusions, yet enjoyed and were also aware of all benefits. It was great country to live in, I don't think in US you can't enjoy a level of freedom and carelessness like it was possible in old Yugoslavia.

I think only Asian countries can be good examples of working hard and good work ethics. US is not, it is excellent example of a lot of other good things. If you don't think this is true, just look at Yahoo to name one.

Re: Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988)

#80

Post by muyuu »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #72
muyuu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no coincidence that all (ex-)paternalistic nanny States show this kind of problem.

That's bollocks. There are many post communist countries which have a strong cultural work ethic. Try making that allegation to the Polish and see how far you get.

Yugoslavia was a paternalist state since pre-Union times. Paternalism lasted in Poland less than 30 years, until the shortage economy kicked in and then the people's republic collapsed.

It can take longer than 1 generation to destroy a country's work ethic.

Work ethic is shaped by social and economic factors rather than some ethereal work culture independent of them. Social and economic systems do in fact shape culture to an important extent.

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