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Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

nytimes.com

41–50 of 52 posts

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#41
post #37

I understand this situation all too well. I quit my software development job in 2011 to finish my computer science degree. After a few months of enjoying my time off, a former boss of mine recruits me to do part-time development work for him. My current position pays extremely well, but it is unfulfilling maintenance work. So, while I'm grateful to have it, with graduation approaching I've started seriously looking f…

Its common to back to school in your late 20s for business school.

But he's not going back to school for an MBA.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#42
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have everything they want, yet. So the answer is: more.

People have an infinite capacity for wanting, so towards infinite growth we go, I guess? Seems sustainable.

Not all wants are wants of material goods.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunk costs are sunk costs. You quit and move on to something that doesn't incur more debt. One option is joining the military where you can get real-world experience and they'll pay a significant portion of future education. Another is taking base courses at a significantly cheaper community college until you understand what you want to do and whether you have the natural ability for it. The core problem is taking on…

The core problem is exploiting inelastic demand in charging 30k for something that could be provided at 2k.

You are not paying for the education, you are paying for the signalling. And the signalling is basically auction.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#44
post #26

Makes me feel bad, my SO has a communications degree, although jobs would be easy to acquire in Singapore, but we're planning to move live together in Europe..

Singapore has recently made work visas much harder to acquire. But I agree, it still is a decent place to live, and the economy is doing better than Europe. (I moved here from Britain last year.)

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#45
post #44
post #26

Makes me feel bad, my SO has a communications degree, although jobs would be easy to acquire in Singapore, but we're planning to move live together in Europe..

Singapore has recently made work visas much harder to acquire. But I agree, it still is a decent place to live, and the economy is doing better than Europe. (I moved here from Britain last year.)

My SO is from Singapore, and they tend to give jobs to degree holders without any hitch (pay grade is a different question).

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#46
post #32

newsflash : University is not job training (except for professional programs like engineering, physical therapy, etc) ... University is _education_ I think what we are (re)discovering is that _education_ is a luxury, for the wealthy class. What the bottom 90% of the country needs is job training, not education. Or at least job training _first_ ... and education as a hobby. Germany is getting it right: http://goo.gl/a…

I think you're broadly right but your specific example is a bit off. An unexceptional English lit major at Yale will walk into any number of prestigious and potentially lucrative jobs in publishing, finance, consulting, nonprofit work, politics, etc, whereas an unexceptional English lit major - or even a business major - from Expensive Second-Tier Private U will have all those doors slammed in her face. It's the latt…

Yeah my example is off because anyone who goes to Yale is already wealthy in the first place.

On a related rant ... obviously there is no real difference between a Yale education and a state school education ... academically speaking. What you get at Yale is the social network and the "badge" ... so (as you say) you can walk into any job on Wall St., Publishing, Consulting, etc, and have an immediate "in"... just because of the badge and the social connections.

The idea that there us upward mobility in today's society is a farce.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, as someone who's done a bit of hiring, if you're meeting someone, you're still considering them as possible - you don't waste your time many times before getting pickier. Two years isn't a hard and fast rule - it never will be - you meet a brilliant candidate with 23 months and you won't hire them? Of course not. It's just a proxy. We want someone with about the skills that you should have acquired in two years…

I agree - but that's part of the problem with this article, as well as similar articles like it. The people they interview seem to genuinely believe that they were rejected because they didn't have a literal 24-months of experience, rather than simply lacking the skills (of which experience-time is just a proxy). If we started communicating to people that they're not good enough for the job, maybe we would have fewer…

>If we started communicating to people that they're not good enough for the job, maybe we would have fewer people running around complaining about how unfair everything is.

I don't think you are good enough for this job

vs.

You are not good enough for this job.

The former is a decision that I (and anyone with hiring authority) is qualified to make; the latter is not.

Hiring is hard and most people aren't very good at it, so the opinion of one hiring manager (while being a valid reason for the hiring decision that manager makes) does not mean you are actually unqualified.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, as someone who's done a bit of hiring, if you're meeting someone, you're still considering them as possible - you don't waste your time many times before getting pickier. Two years isn't a hard and fast rule - it never will be - you meet a brilliant candidate with 23 months and you won't hire them? Of course not. It's just a proxy. We want someone with about the skills that you should have acquired in two years…

I agree - but that's part of the problem with this article, as well as similar articles like it. The people they interview seem to genuinely believe that they were rejected because they didn't have a literal 24-months of experience, rather than simply lacking the skills (of which experience-time is just a proxy). If we started communicating to people that they're not good enough for the job, maybe we would have fewer…

The other thing, here? Just like there is no incentive for a company to ever give a negative reference, there is no incentive for a company to ever tell you why you were rejected.

That's the thing, If I don't hire you, well, I can tell you the real reason, sure, and I feel a lot better because I'm being honest and transparent. Real reasons, for me, include the following

1. I planned poorly or business conditions changed, and it turns out there isn't actually enough money to hire someone.

2. I don't believe you are smart enough/ capable of learning what I will have to teach you to do the job.

3. I don't believe you are trustworthy enough. Most of the jobs I have, well, involve the ability to destroy me completely. (which is a problem, yes... but it's not an uncommon problem, for sysadmin jobs.)

Upon hearing either of those reasons, it's perfectly natural for the applicant to be angry and/or defensive. 1. is quite clearly my own fault; I'm wasting the applicants time through my incompetence, so obviously, that's going to be irritating. 2. is where my feedback could actually help the applicant, maybe? but even there, it's hard. It's hard to be told you aren't good enough, and many people react badly on that level... and sometimes their defensiveness is justified; evaluating people is hard and even really good hiring managers are quite often wrong. Hell, different hiring managers look for different things; One guy says to act more confident and take control of the situation; the other says the opposite. These decisions are often made on 'gut' (which is another issue... but it is what it is) and sometimes, well, the hiring manager does not understand him/herself what is going on.

This is before any of the legal bullshit.

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem is exploiting inelastic demand in charging 30k for something that could be provided at 2k.

You are not paying for the education, you are paying for the signalling. And the signalling is basically auction.

I 100% agree you're paying for the signalling. But it's not an auction. Unless by auction you mean "the seller gets the government to pay upfront any price the seller chooses, and the government and buyer (student) get to work it out later as they see fit".

Re: Frayed Prospects, Despite a Degree

#50
post #45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore has recently made work visas much harder to acquire. But I agree, it still is a decent place to live, and the economy is doing better than Europe. (I moved here from Britain last year.)

My SO is from Singapore, and they tend to give jobs to degree holders without any hitch (pay grade is a different question).

See http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/employme...
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