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Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

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Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#51
Often the least mentioned and discussed approach to solving the healthcare morass is the customer driver model of healthcare.

David Goldhill is the author of Catastrophic Care: How American Health Care Killed My Father--and How We Can Fix It

He advocates restricting the insurance system gradually and phasing out eventually, to increase accountability and vastly improve delivery standards.

His father was afflicted by a series of hospital infections that compounded his condition and eventually killed him.

When admitted in hospitals, he was thrice subjected to medical procedures that were meant for other people.

This Atlantic article is eminently readable.

How American Health Care Killed My Father

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2009/09/how-americ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_7qCpiS_ZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A9y_FttOGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0OAj9J_HW4

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-payer or government provided healthcare? Pretty sure that no one would identify the government as the picture perfect example of efficiency. Plus, putting elected officials or their appointees in charge of handing out goods and services doesnt seem to be sustainable. It seems odd to me that so many Americans seem pessimistic about their own government. I could understand if the attitude was, "We could make uni…

Pretty sure us Brits still get a claim on the empire thing. Pretty sure...

He meant the benevolent kind of empire.

Since the US doesn't annex territories for itself and keep them as colonies as part of some Commonwealth Realm.

Although the US could have if it tried, with the slightest flex of a myoblast, in the last great war. It still can.

Pretty sure that's what he/she meant.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#53
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't begin to understand the US health system (I live in the UK with its National Health), but didn't Obama try bring in compulsory health insurance to counteract just this sort of thing and it was defeated?

It was not actually defeated, but if a Republican wins the next election (which is possible) and the senate and house can achieve a Republican majority, it will almost definitely be repealed.

The next election, or the election after that, or the election after that... As soon as they can, even if it takes then twenty years, they'll stab it in the heart with jubilant rapture.

They're still attacking Roe vs. Wade, after all.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#54

I have often wondered given the kind of cost involved in good health care in USA, along with college fees, why don't more Americans move to Europe for health care and education where it is probably free most of the time? P.S.: I am from Pakistan.

Most Americans for whom healthcare and college costs are an issue probably can't afford to move to Europe either.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-payer or government provided healthcare? Pretty sure that no one would identify the government as the picture perfect example of efficiency. Plus, putting elected officials or their appointees in charge of handing out goods and services doesnt seem to be sustainable. It seems odd to me that so many Americans seem pessimistic about their own government. I could understand if the attitude was, "We could make uni…

Well, we do already spend more than the UK on providing health insurance (divided by total population), but we're just providing it to seniors and poor people. The problem is the morass of laws we've accumulated around healthcare over the years for various reasons that now interact in complex ways that nobody foresaw. Like the law designed to make Medicare or Medicaid (I forget which) drugs cheaper that ended up maki…

In slightly less words and with slightly less accuracy, you're unwilling or unable to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.

To an extent I wonder how much of that is due to lack of recent experience with starting from scratch. The United States hasn't had a revolution, a war on its territory, or a regime collapse in a long time.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that Americans hold the attitude that the government is not the picture perfect example of efficiency except in the case of the military. Spoiler alert: we have a quasi-single-payer system for the military.

Part of the reason that the military is able to do a relatively good job providing healthcare is that they can do a lot of sensible cost-saving things that are illegal in most places. Like using nurse-practitioners instead of MDs where appropriate.

Nurse practitioners are used in many countries with great results. Why is using them illegal ? of course it's because of regulatory capture and the general power doctors hold, which is probably the biggest reason why healthcare is so expensive(and also not very good).

You see it in million places: The limited number of medical schools, The lack of nurse practitioners doing the simple routine jobs in most specialties(dental, family, colonoscopy, anesthsia. Many others could exist), The lack of automation and expert systems[4] and automated patient interview[3] tools, the fact that family practitioners could replace a lot of the specialists work at lower costs[1], Many medical jobs could be done with a lot less training[2], the lack of use of proven processes like checklists[5], etc.

All those changes could save a lot of money, and raise quality. We know what to do, But how do we implement it ?

[1]http://www.rwjf.org/en/grants/grantees/project-echo.html

[2]Because there's a brain drain in africa to the west, some countries have started a 3 year surgeon degree program. Doctors who finished this degree seem to have equivalent results to fully trained doctors in simple/medium complexity surgeries.

[3]Research showed doctors only ask about half of the questions needed in a typical visit. Automated interview systems could at least gather more complete data.

[4]There's research review showing that correct implementation of decision support/expert systems could improve results.

[5]Peter provonost showed that checklists could reduce infection rates in one procedure from 8/12 percent to zero.This was around 10 years ago. I think gawande showed similar results in other stuff. checklists are still not commonly used.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#57

I have often wondered given the kind of cost involved in good health care in USA, along with college fees, why don't more Americans move to Europe for health care and education where it is probably free most of the time? P.S.: I am from Pakistan.

Don't most of those "free" public health care systems only apply to citizens? I recall a story about a foreigner in Germany having to pay for their care, even if the price was reduced. Non-emergency care in the UK, for example, requires legal residency, which may be hard to come by for someone too poor to afford health care in the US. France requires non-EU citizens to have insurance for care in France to get a visa, as I understand it.

So, it's not just as easy as "let's pack up and move to the EU so we can get free healthcare tomorrow." Otherwise, you can imagine that every time a non-insured American got sick, they could compare the cost of getting new insurance to the cost of a plane ticket, and the plane ticket would win, I'm sure. =)

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-payer or government provided healthcare? Pretty sure that no one would identify the government as the picture perfect example of efficiency. Plus, putting elected officials or their appointees in charge of handing out goods and services doesnt seem to be sustainable. It seems odd to me that so many Americans seem pessimistic about their own government. I could understand if the attitude was, "We could make uni…

Well, we do already spend more than the UK on providing health insurance (divided by total population), but we're just providing it to seniors and poor people. The problem is the morass of laws we've accumulated around healthcare over the years for various reasons that now interact in complex ways that nobody foresaw. Like the law designed to make Medicare or Medicaid (I forget which) drugs cheaper that ended up maki…

Instead of a gradual reform, what about enabling a new medical system , bound to new relaxed laws and new people to control it, to exist side by side to the current system, that would focus on low cost healthcare ?

Maybe it would be "lower quality", but least it would offer choice for many , and be a great research lab for low cost healthcare.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#59
post #11

Great story of compassion and triumph. So... How do we make it scale? Is it mandatory insurance? Insurance doesn't make everything affordable, but it probably wild have been helpful. Though maybe the co-pay would have been $50k. Universal tax-payer funded insurance? The term "tax payer" is interesting because politicians and pundits forget that we're all tax payers in one form or another. Granted some pay more, some…

Single-payer or government provided healthcare? Pretty sure that no one would identify the government as the picture perfect example of efficiency. Plus, putting elected officials or their appointees in charge of handing out goods and services doesnt seem to be sustainable. It seems odd to me that so many Americans seem pessimistic about their own government. I could understand if the attitude was, "We could make uni…

Well, Americans don't really vote, they prefer the government stay far away (imagine someone in Wyoming viewing a Federal solution kind of like Brussels solving Greece's health care problem), moneyed interests/cartels have a lot of sway, and some groups don't like paying for other groups' healthcare.

Local solutions don't really work for medical care, in terms of the legalities and economic structure, you have to require everyone to participate.

In this case, size and diversity work against us, it's just a lot easier in a small homogenous Scandinavian country.

Anyway, we have Obamacare gradually being implemented, where all employers above a certain size are supposed to offer insurance, and everyone else is supposed to buy it (the 'mandate' which the Supreme Court says is really just a tax).

So, maybe a minimum level of health care will start to be universal. But in order to get it through they made sure everyone was well greased. If the doctors, the hospitals, the insurance companies, or the pharmaceutical companies had to tighten belts a notch that would have been enough to sink it. So, it's going to stay very expensive.

Re: Hacker News Folks Get Long Overdue Thanks

#60
post #57

I have often wondered given the kind of cost involved in good health care in USA, along with college fees, why don't more Americans move to Europe for health care and education where it is probably free most of the time? P.S.: I am from Pakistan.

Don't most of those "free" public health care systems only apply to citizens? I recall a story about a foreigner in Germany having to pay for their care, even if the price was reduced. Non-emergency care in the UK, for example, requires legal residency, which may be hard to come by for someone too poor to afford health care in the US. France requires non-EU citizens to have insurance for care in France to get a visa,…

I've been to the doctor in Australia and Germany, and you do have to pay but the price was less than what I had to pay in the USA with insurance.
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