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The Forbidden Island

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Re: The Forbidden Island

#181

Post by resu_nimda »

dirktheman wrote: post #104

Let’s suppose our earth is visited by aliens. Giant extraterrestial spaceships appear. They make contact, abduct a couple of humans, some of which return with strange diseases. Oh yeah, and heaps of iPads as gifts. The people that make it back speak of a strange society, where everybody is essentially a mindless part of a big mainframe, not unlike the Borg in Star Trek. One day, the aliens make contact. We try to fen…

The devil is in the details, as always.

Would I want to be left alone by the Borg? Yes. But what if it was The Culture? I would be very disappointed if a civilization like that saw us and said "Oh, they probably wouldn't want all of our bullshit, leave them alone." I'm sure there are many who would disagree.

The big problem with the alien analogy is our level of knowledge and language. The tribesmen are...savages. There is no framework whatsoever for them to understand anything about modern society and make reasoned evaluations. Conversely, it's hard to imagine that scenario between us and aliens. It's certainly possible that their society is so far beyond our wildest dreams that we can't even begin to make sense of it, but it's also possible that we have crossed some fundamental threshold of knowledge and communication.

Is our culture superior, is it not, how can that be evaluated? Most people do tend to stay in it rather than set out into the woods. Of course they have been biased towards that since birth, likewise for the Sentinelese and their ways, it's a really interesting and highly subjective question.

Whether we attempt to contact/assimilate them or not, we have made a choice. If we did try, it could go well or it could go poorly; they could be eternally grateful for knowledge and technology, or they could be destroyed. There are so many factors and ideological viewpoints at play, I just don't understand how people here can be so sure that one way or the other is The Right Thing to Do.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#182

Post by workbench »

aaron695 wrote: post #142
geuis wrote: post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

This sort of comment is exactly what is wrong what the world. What is your expertise in this area? Are you a anthropologist?? I suspect you are just one of these sick people who like the idea mini zoos with humans in them. These are human beings. They deserve access to modern medicines like the rest of us of the world even if you lose this precious zoo. How are their women treated? That is the ones who don't die in c…

> How are their women treated?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaPYwlXOTzQ Just fine it would seem

Re: The Forbidden Island

#183

Post by Ygg2 »

ekianjo wrote: post #180
Ygg2 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much unrest? That claim seems dubious. What are your standards for not much unrest? I never said it is a like a lake. I meant an actual lake. Lake was example how inequalities lead to richest people making policies that don't impact them. That is the biggest threat income inequality may present to any society. Money is like gravity/mass. The more money you have the more money you attract. You may create wealth, b…

Notice the "tend to" != "are". Obviously there are other factors at work. But statistically speaking, or as a rule of thumb, growing economies are clearly leading to more stable countries.

Notice I said a similar thing. Gini coefficient correlates with lower life expectancy, more tensions, etc. I think it is a better predictor of peace and overall quality value, than growing economies.

http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

Re: The Forbidden Island

#184

Post by danparsonson »

nitrogen wrote: post #92
danparsonson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they wanted it, certainly, but they attack any non-islanders who come near so it seems reasonable to assume they're not interested. Besides, what do they need to know that they don't already after living on the same island for 65,000 years? I'm assuming you're thinking about modern medicine but I expect they have their own ways of dealing with illness, and increasing their life expectancy might actually make thing…

I'm thinking more of math and science. I suppose if the island's leaders are aware of the outside world and all it can and can't do, then I'd be less concerned about the "oppressed" minds of the island's inhabitants. I feel similarly about ultra-sheltered children in cultish societies.

I would say those are two different examples though - children in cultish societies are removed from society at large while the cult remains embedded in and aware of it; the islanders on the other hand have deliberately chosen isolation rather than having isolation forced upon them by any external agent. I would say it's really up to them to head into the outside world rather than for us to do anything, if they want to see what's out here. And clearly they don't.

The only hint of 'oppression' I see here is the idea of pushing our way of thinking onto a group of people who aren't interested and, to my mind, would derive questionable benefit from it. They must surely have sufficient 'science' to have survived there for this long and unless they intend to venture away from their island, what useful things could we teach them? I can't picture them building a particle accelerator or sitting around all day puzzling over integrals.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#185

Post by workbench »

sandGorgon wrote: post #64
terhechte wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always fly drones around. Edit: Non-Lethal, Non-Army drones. Just flying cameras to see what's happening there, or how they're living. Even better, really small cameras that look a bit like slow-moving birds.

No you cannot. Not in the Andaman Islands. These islands are the base for the Indian Tri-Services Command [1] and rumor has it, for the Indian Nuclear ICBM command. In addition there are more rumors of serious electronic warfare going on there against the Chinese listening posts on Coco Island. No way are there going to be drones around Andamans anytime soon. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaman_and_Nicobar_Comma…

Think by drones they meant a quadcopter camera

Re: The Forbidden Island

#186

Post by precisioncoder »

king_jester wrote: post #170
precisioncoder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard multiple references of the world wide poverty rate dropping by half in the last 20 years, here's a summary. http://finallygoodnews.net/2013/06/20/half-way-there-world-w... and the original article http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-bill...

The article talks about reductions in extreme poverty, that is living on less than $1.25 a day. Note that doesn't really address wealth disparity, only that more people, esp. in China, are living with higher income. However, this change doesn't make any statements about increasing equality for different economic classes nor does it talk about sustainability of a lowering extreme poverty rate. It also doesn't talk abo…

Still it's nice to know that at least people in extreme poverty are having their numbers decreased so drastically.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#187

Post by bennyg »

jcnnghm wrote: post #178
bennyg wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is 35th in infant mortality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mor... ) - and the US is 33rd in life expectancy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expec... ). You just said you didn't know their two statistics in those categories, but a hunch may be enough to go in and shake things up for them.

Of course, many other countries cook the infant mortality books be not reporting premature babies that die shortly after birth or are "hopeless" because they don't have the medical tech that the US does. Consequently, that skews US life expectancy down.

All I'm saying is that the US isn't all sunshine and daisies. There are a TON of poor areas (rural and urban alike) where it's just not safe to live, kids don't get enough mental and physical nourishment, and there's a good chance you'll die before high school. That sucks. And that's a problem that should be fixed. As a US citizen, I care infinitely more about fixing these problems before trying to contact and civilize the inhabitants of some remote island.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#188

Post by s_q_b »

rapind wrote: post #144
homeomorphic wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture. The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern wo…

Considering they have no marketable skills or education, how could their situation get any better? There are tons of poor people in the world who die from easily preventable diseases that you could help instead if that's your true motivation. They are a self-sufficient people that don't seem to be screwing up the world nearly as much as we are... why would we even assume we're superior? Maybe we're just jealous?

Personally I like refrigeration, modern medicine, transportation, and high technology. Maybe those aren't your thing, but I know if I was born into a society like that, I would spend my life trying to see what was beyond the water.

Or die. Because, you know, a lot of them die.

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