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The Forbidden Island

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Re: The Forbidden Island

#91

Post by Anderkent »

alan_cx wrote: post #84
homeomorphic wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A. it is clearly what they want. We all encounter at times fellow humans who want something that clearly is based on lacking information. Of course we respect such things, but only up to a certain point. We often do try to help people see the bigger picture - sometimes we do say "I hear you say that that is what you want, but have you considered the fact that...". > B. contact with us is likely to be deadly to them…

A. Yeah, except we never tell them the down side. We arrogantly assume our oh so clever technical ways are better. Sadly we are still not mature enough to decently make contact with such people.

You can't be serious. How many children are you willing to condemn to extremely premature death because of your noble savage illusion?

Yes, our 'oh so clever technical ways' are not perfect. But they are so much better. Perhaps these people are just as happy as we are. Even so, their stillborn children are still dead. They almost certainly see more murder and rape. How can you condemn people to living like that, even if they want to because they don't know any better?

Re: The Forbidden Island

#92

Post by nitrogen »

danparsonson wrote: post #61
nitrogen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it just as unethical to withhold modern learning from these tribes as it would be to infect them with our modern diseases?

If they wanted it, certainly, but they attack any non-islanders who come near so it seems reasonable to assume they're not interested. Besides, what do they need to know that they don't already after living on the same island for 65,000 years? I'm assuming you're thinking about modern medicine but I expect they have their own ways of dealing with illness, and increasing their life expectancy might actually make thing…

I'm thinking more of math and science. I suppose if the island's leaders are aware of the outside world and all it can and can't do, then I'd be less concerned about the "oppressed" minds of the island's inhabitants. I feel similarly about ultra-sheltered children in cultish societies.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#94

Post by Shivetya »

homeomorphic wrote: post #71
geuis wrote: post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture. The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern wo…

Considering the state of our affairs, I think we are doing them best by not interfering in their way of life.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#95

Post by barking »

userulluipeste wrote: post #88
barking wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if they have a brutal dictator there? Or slavery? Or sexual abuse (like on pitcairn island)? On balance though, I think all countries should leave one another alone. Foreign intervention frequently seems to do more harm than good. These people though are now living in a constructed reality like 'The truman Show', we just haven't put the cameras in yet.

First, in "The Truman Show" the protagonist was not participating with his own volition. He did not wanted to restrain himself inside. These people had a lot of contact with the outside world and still want to be left alone. The parallel is not quite valid. Second, this is natural. The island is natural, the people with their ancestry and isolationist policy are as natural as possible. Even if we'd put cameras, we'd…

>

I'd argue that their attitude to the outside world can only be based on very little information most of which is probably no longer relevant

Re: The Forbidden Island

#96

Post by userulluipeste »

Anderkent wrote: post #87
userulluipeste wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (Star Trek's) Prime Directive is not something worthwhile to be considered here? The representatives of these people (the ones with bows and other kind of weapons that dare to face the outsiders) are stating clearly their policy. Maybe it is us that must get over our desires to intrude supposedly on someone else's benefit.

The representatives of these people are hardly in a situation where they can make an informed decision. Even if they were, they have no right of condemning their children to such life.

We are getting into politics here. We all have representatives and policy makers that are deciding all the time for us and we also have to support the consequences of their decisions, no mater how informed they were.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#97

Post by matt4711 »

vr000m wrote: post #74
monsterix wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and those islands are also protected by the Indian Navy quite diligently. It's important to prevent curious assholes from touching the island for two reasons: 1. These tribes have not developed medical immunity against the kind of diseases we're host to. 2. They're truly wild and curious like us too. Protecting the former quality needs a restraint from our side. I've been to Andaman & Nicobar in 2004 and did feel…

except a lot of the tribes were further reduced to paltry sizes after the tsunami. If I remember correctly from my last visit in 1996/97, the census numbers for some of the tribes were already around ~100. Since Port Blair is on the middle island of the Andaman land mass, it has affected all the other tribes on that island. Especially the Jarwa. North andaman (Jarwa) tribes at the time were hostile, which I believe s…

if they can survive 65000 years on the island I'm sure they have witnessed a few natural disasters and managed to survive as a culture.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#99

Post by geuis »

Anderkent wrote: post #91
alan_cx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A. Yeah, except we never tell them the down side. We arrogantly assume our oh so clever technical ways are better. Sadly we are still not mature enough to decently make contact with such people.

You can't be serious. How many children are you willing to condemn to extremely premature death because of your noble savage illusion? Yes, our 'oh so clever technical ways' are not perfect. But they are so much better. Perhaps these people are just as happy as we are. Even so, their stillborn children are still dead. They almost certainly see more murder and rape. How can you condemn people to living like that, even…

Don't you dare bring out the fucking "oh the children" argument. People die all the fucking time. Its what people do, we die.

These people, if the suppositions are to be believed, have been able to survive and reproduce for tens of thousands of years. They don't need your pity or "help".

If you sit back for an hour or so and re-read your comment 10-20 times, you'll realize what a Western missionary statement it is. Basically, your mindset seems to be similar to the "save the heathens" mindset of 18th - 19th century Europe in regards to the US and Australia, among other places.

Surely we can't save them in body, but if we convert them before they die then they'll be saved in the light of the Lord. Hala loola or whatever.

Yeah, I'm serious. Leave them alone.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#100

Post by annnnd »

Anderkent wrote: post #87
userulluipeste wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (Star Trek's) Prime Directive is not something worthwhile to be considered here? The representatives of these people (the ones with bows and other kind of weapons that dare to face the outsiders) are stating clearly their policy. Maybe it is us that must get over our desires to intrude supposedly on someone else's benefit.

The representatives of these people are hardly in a situation where they can make an informed decision. Even if they were, they have no right of condemning their children to such life.

That doesn't really matter. If a girl refuses to go out with you, she might not be in a position where she can make an informed decision. And she is possibly depriving her future children of a magnificent father, condemning them to life without you. But you should still respect her "NO".

On a more serious note, given some historic evidence how our contact with other tribes ended (pick any tribe, anytime, anywhere) I am both surprised and happy that they exist. I hope they stay the same for as long as possible and may we never learn anything about them.

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