Live data from Hacker News

The Forbidden Island

neatorama.com

71–80 of 288 posts

Re: The Forbidden Island

#71
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture.

The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern world to benign aliens, but properly managed (as access to the island already appears to be) surely we can approach them in a decent way?

That they violently defend themselves is of course a highly complicating factor.

I guess all I'm saying is that not establishing contact is also a choice that we're making on their behalf. Is deciding that they can't parttake in modern society any more OK than deciding they must? Can we not contact them in a way where they get to choose?

Edit: I certainly agree that we as humans have an absolutely horrible track record on these kinds of things. But it's been a while now, hasn't it? Can't we pull this off by now? These guys are our brothers and sisters - should we at least not have a chat with them to see if they really want to be left the fuck alone, or if they might want to not die whenever they get an infected wound, or half the time they have kids, or whenever they break a leg? Hell, it might well be that some of them want to be left the fuck alone, while some would like to see the world. How come those latter ones have to stay on that island just because we say so?

Re: The Forbidden Island

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what they are doing. In fact, the article (or Wikipedia), says India has already made it illegal/discouraged to go near the island.

Yes and those islands are also protected by the Indian Navy quite diligently. It's important to prevent curious assholes from touching the island for two reasons: 1. These tribes have not developed medical immunity against the kind of diseases we're host to. 2. They're truly wild and curious like us too. Protecting the former quality needs a restraint from our side. I've been to Andaman & Nicobar in 2004 and did feel…

The clip is absolutely fascinating. It's sad that the person who uploaded it also threw up a bunch of BS about garden of eden and Abrahamic religions. Come on, this contact with people unlike us. One of the downsides of greater contact and communication is the homogenization (somewhat) of civilizations around the world. These are people who have escaped much of that except a few contacts.

We really do need to fight the urge to put nike's on them, although I must admit to being interested the number of things we might learn about ourselves from studying these people. But then again, I understand the Schrodinger's "People" analogy.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#73
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and I think we can all agree that our standards of living are WAY better than theirs, but by OUR standards. Yes, our life expectancy is better, we have better teeth, we are healthier, we get to use all the shiny stuff that comes with our civilization. But those are our standards, not theirs. So there's no 'winner' here. Look at native Americans. They were also 'savages', and we didn't do very well i…

> But those are our standards, not theirs I think it is fair to assume that health and life are universal standards. I'm willing to bet on in.

Maybe it depends whether you look at it from a collective or individual point of view? Individually we are probably healthier, but as a population they well may be healthier since infirmity is naturally eliminated by death. That sounds pretty bad, but it might not be bad if they have a different, more accepting, view of death than us.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what they are doing. In fact, the article (or Wikipedia), says India has already made it illegal/discouraged to go near the island.

Yes and those islands are also protected by the Indian Navy quite diligently. It's important to prevent curious assholes from touching the island for two reasons: 1. These tribes have not developed medical immunity against the kind of diseases we're host to. 2. They're truly wild and curious like us too. Protecting the former quality needs a restraint from our side. I've been to Andaman & Nicobar in 2004 and did feel…

except a lot of the tribes were further reduced to paltry sizes after the tsunami. If I remember correctly from my last visit in 1996/97, the census numbers for some of the tribes were already around ~100. Since Port Blair is on the middle island of the Andaman land mass, it has affected all the other tribes on that island. Especially the Jarwa.

North andaman (Jarwa) tribes at the time were hostile, which I believe since the construction of the Andaman grand trunk road have become more subdued.

Compared to Jarwa, the sentilese have it better, they dont share their island.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#75
Well, ever since the Intergalactic foundation created a no-fly zone around our solar-system in order to let us remain uncontacted, we are in a similar boat. People outside there look fondly at our antiquated technology as the good old days.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#76
post #52
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As compared to the Civilized Man, who has only solidly developed all the things you describe in the last couple hundred years and took thousands of years of war, famine, plague, slavery, and endless grinding inequality (still haven't quite fixed that one it seems) to get where we are now? Nothing quite like the modern man, where some tiny percentage of the world enjoys all its fruits and a few billion others try to l…

> thousands of years of war, famine, plague, slavery, and endless grinding inequality (still haven't quite fixed that one it seems) to get where we are now? Are you trying to tell me that these "noble savages" didn't have war, didn't have famine or inequality?

Tribal warfare was usually a matter of establishing boundaries. If I remember my history correctly, this was pretty clearly demonstrated in battles between Native Americans and European colonists in the 16 and 1700s. Tribal attacks were closer to raids - warriors would fight, some people would die, but damage on a lasting scale was minimal. Colonist attacks, on the other hand, were going to war in the civilized measure of the term; burning down villages/towns, significantly more death, etc.

And as technology has advanced and civilizations have grown in size and strength, our conception of war has grown ever more brutal. Its been shown, for example, that troops at the time of the revolutionary war that fired on each other by and large missed - troops would load gunpowder but not the bullet; they would aim over the heads of the opposing troop at the last second; and so on. Something like 20 or 30 percent of the troops would actually be shooting at their opponents.

When this was discovered (I think in the early 1900s, but I don't really remember - could be as late as the 40s?) armies changed training methods; they would use targets closer to the shape of humans and so on, and there was a massive increase in the accuracy of soldiers using guns. There was also the advent of "total war" during the American Civil War, with the previously unheard-of scale of destruction that brought (which we now consider typical).

In short, "war" is a wildly different thing for two tribes of a few hundred people that have several hundred sq. miles of territory each (and no strong reason to invade the other), and two civilizations deploying thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of troops, with vastly more lethal weapons, to fight each other.

Famine is also less of an issue for a hunter/gatherer tribe; the large expanse of territory means that if one area is temporarily exhausted, you move somewhere else, or you follow the herds, etc.

Lastly, inequality doesn't seem to exist as a problem for most tribal societies. I mean, imagine living with a few hundred other people that are all you know - and are all you will ever know? People will go to great lengths to help their friends and family in our society; is it so strange to think that in a group where everyone knows each other and everyone works, lives and plays together, that the group will naturally enforce some sort of equilibrium between its members? That people will share and help each other based more on their capabilities and the expectations of others?

Further, we can see that stratification and inequality are endless problems for civilized societies - war, rebellion and revolts are constant themes throughout civilized history, often between the "haves" and the "have nots". These problems exist because civilization is an attempt to create human societies at scale - except humans aren't built for social structures beyond a few hundred people, and we have yet to find a way to replace that default social construct with something that works for tens of thousands or millions or billions of people.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#77
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and I think we can all agree that our standards of living are WAY better than theirs, but by OUR standards. Yes, our life expectancy is better, we have better teeth, we are healthier, we get to use all the shiny stuff that comes with our civilization. But those are our standards, not theirs. So there's no 'winner' here. Look at native Americans. They were also 'savages', and we didn't do very well i…

> But those are our standards, not theirs I think it is fair to assume that health and life are universal standards. I'm willing to bet on in.

Perhaps age is a universal standard and therefore health and life can be associated to it.

On the other hand, if our contact wipes out a share of their population, it reduces their life expectancy. Furthermore, they survived the 2004 Tsunami, so possibly they are doing better than others in the region.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#78
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why leave them alone? (I have my own reasons why they should or shouldn't be left alone. I am just curious to figure out why you are so insistent that they be left alone.)

A. it is clearly what they want. B. contact with us is likely to be deadly to them.

> A. it is clearly what they want.

We all encounter at times fellow humans who want something that clearly is based on lacking information. Of course we respect such things, but only up to a certain point. We often do try to help people see the bigger picture - sometimes we do say "I hear you say that that is what you want, but have you considered the fact that...".

> B. contact with us is likely to be deadly to them.

This can be remedied with technology. A crude solution would be to land in hazmat suits and have a chat. I don't know how we should deal with the bows and arrows though.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#79
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture. The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern wo…

Regarding the aliens... how do we know they aren't already doing exactly that to us? "Leave them alone"?

Also, with advanced technology comes advanced ways of self destruction. Maybe we don't poses the cultural requirements for being accepted in that club?

I would argue the same for the Sentinese (there are good historical examples for this[1]). Maybe if we give them weapons, they will kill themselves, or end up in constant warring state or something else.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tahiti

Re: The Forbidden Island

#80
post #51
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

Why leave them alone? (I have my own reasons why they should or shouldn't be left alone. I am just curious to figure out why you are so insistent that they be left alone.)

We cant get our own cultures right, why screw up more?
Post reply on HN