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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#481

Post by vacri »

officemonkey wrote: post #476
vacri wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think exactly the same thing of you, given that you think I'm stupid enough to believe that being called a douche is 'constructive criticism'. It doesn't require profanity to insult someone.

If you're offended by the word douche to describe a jerk, then we occupy different cultures. Similarly, if someone thinks being called a "jerk" is an insult devoid of constructive criticism, then they're likely either intentionally obdurate or they lack the self-awareness to identify their failings. I'm perfectly aware of my ability to be a douche. I just choose who to be a jerk to. Strangers on the internet: possibl…

I'm not offended by it in the slightest. I swear like a trooper. My issue is that you're trying to pass off a generic insult as 'constructive criticism'. What is insulting is that you think I'm stupid enough to believe it - it's not the words you're using, but the underlying context.

It's either that, or you don't actually understand what constructive criticism is.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#482

Post by vinceguidry »

snowwrestler wrote: post #473
xradionut wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should enlist in the military and see how well that works. :)

Some of the best corporate managers I've ever worked with were veterans. Contrary to popular belief, the military is not an organization that uses abuse as a management tool beyond boot camp.

They don't even really use it in boot camp. I remember it well. You got dressed down for doing stupid stuff, but it didn't rise to the level of abuse. It certainly wasn't a lynchpin component to their strategy. In fact, when I was in BMT, it was encouraged to report abusive behavior up the chain of command. No, boot camp is all about long, hard days and shared hardship. It worked well enough.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#483

Post by NTDF »

Honestly, if Linus was my boss, I'd quit my job cursing him. He has a lot going for him. I understand why he needs to be like this and why it works, but in all seriousness, I'd much rather be like Eric Schmidt or Bill Joy.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#484

Post by phryk »

justin66 wrote: post #458
phryk wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question. And a good one, too. The honest answer is: I don't know. I think this is highly contextual. At least I can't make a generalized decision for that. If the "less diversity" bit for instance means incorporating a 'No Nazis'-rule then the choice might be clear while in other…

> If, however, we are still talking about the case of censoring out profanity, you know my opinion. The people who are filtered out (or constitute the "less diversity") are the sort of people who get offended by me making use of a basic freedom (the one of speech). I am not interested in meeting people like that - frankly I hope they stay as far away from me as fucking possible. This is interesting. My instinctive re…

Of course I started behaving more carefully around him, and a little more carefully in general.

This, I believe, is the wrong way to go about it. To me this seems like some sort of culture clash and in my opinion staying silent is the wrong way to go about this.

If I notice someone getting offended by my profanity I just tell them that they were not the target of that profanity and that I have no 'beef' with them. I haven't ever met anyone with whom this was a problem. I usually make a pretty good case for open communication, depending on sobriety of course. ;)

I believe the onus is entirely on the guy who is trying to be charming (if that's what we're talking about, as opposed to simple catcalling sorts of harassment) to notice when the object of his wit does not reciprocate with a smile and a kind word and to move the fuck on before his behavior gets creepy. I suppose I'm agreeing with you, as not smiling is a pretty clear form of communication - no rings or shirts or pepper spray are required.

I think the point of the "getting hit on all the time sucks"-argument for anti-discrimination rules was that even if all the guys who hit on a girl stop it after (instantly) seeing that she isn't interested it would still be a lot of input which "sucks". So the case many people skeptic of anti-discriminatory rules saw was that a girl gets hit on all the time and even if they all do so in a civil manner, the one unlucky guy who represents the 'final straw' to that girl then gets kicked out. The examples I put up for showing that you're not interesting were aimed at communicating that before you get hit on. A rough analogue for this might be a spam filter - You don't have to manually decide whether or not something is spam by reading it, you don't have to read it in the first place. :P

Harassment is obviously a reason to warn somebody or - if they repeatedly harass someone - kick them out of the event. That said, I think 'catcalling' is very nuanced, couples or people who know each other for $random_reason can catcall each other in play and fun, you can also do it in a sarcastic/parodic fashion etc. The only thing I'd generalize about catcalling is that you probably shouldn't do it to someone you don't know (and of course not to someone of whom you know that they don't like it).

But in general I think pretty much everything I said here can be succinctly shortened to "Be merry, have fun and if you feel there's a problem - talk about it - just don't do it behind someone's back."

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#485

Post by hmsimha »

jasonwocky wrote: post #367
theorique wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus gets away with it because he's Linus and people are willing to swim through a river of shit to work closely with him. Conversely, an average OSS developer will drive people away with this attitude unless the benefit of working with him is so attractive that it outweighs the pain of abuse (in which case he's probably not 'average' at all). Assholes who really deliver get a pass from (some of) the world. Doesn't…

Linus wasn't always "Linus". It'd be interesting to graph his profanity / other communication metrics over time.

You may be interested to peruse some of the dialog of the "Tanenbaum-Torvalds" debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_deba...). Basically, Andrew Tanenbaum, creator and advocate of the MINIX operating system (from which Linus drew some inspiration) got into a debate with Linus in 1987, claiming that the monolithic kernel design was inferior to the microkernel, and that Linux was obsolete from launch. Linus's responses throughout the debate strike me as some of his more respectful and thoughtful rhetoric. (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#486

Post by derleth »

Vornir wrote: post #127

I know now what I could tell to a young nerd who's been bullied: Don't worry, later you'll be able to do the same I guess it's a great example for young peoples that you can get away with any despicable behaviors as long as you have done something worthwhile in your life. People are then able to rationalize that by saying it was "warranted" or "thought provoking" or any garbage they can find to justify it, because so…

If you think this is bullying, you've never been bullied.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#487

Post by kapilkaisare »

Regardless of the rectitude of either point of view, I consider it important to develop the resilience necessary to soak in difficult language. You can't decide - or always influence - how your peers or bosses talk to you. More importantly, you may miss the feedback the language comes with - feedback that might help you improve yourself.

I deal with a yelling boss by hearing him out and then, once the moment has passed, rerunning the event and mining it for real criticism, minus the emotional baggage it came with. If I find nothing, I disregard his gibber entirely; if I find something substantial, I make note of it and (in the days that follow) try to weed it out.

Worst case: I get nothing useful, in which case the boss was simply venting. Best case: I learn something about myself, and get better in the process.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#488

Post by justin66 »

phryk wrote: post #484
justin66 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If, however, we are still talking about the case of censoring out profanity, you know my opinion. The people who are filtered out (or constitute the "less diversity") are the sort of people who get offended by me making use of a basic freedom (the one of speech). I am not interested in meeting people like that - frankly I hope they stay as far away from me as fucking possible. This is interesting. My instinctive re…

Of course I started behaving more carefully around him, and a little more carefully in general. This, I believe, is the wrong way to go about it. To me this seems like some sort of culture clash and in my opinion staying silent is the wrong way to go about this. If I notice someone getting offended by my profanity I just tell them that they were not the target of that profanity and that I have no 'beef' with them. I…

> To me this seems like some sort of culture clash and in my opinion staying silent is the wrong way to go about this.

I'm perfectly capable of expressing everything I might express with profanity, without profanity. I'm now conscious of the fact that I'm a lot more persuasive if I take half a second to edit myself. The whole thing was a valuable learning experience.

> I think 'catcalling' is very nuanced

Interesting. I'd only ever use the word to describe the kind of rude behavior that happens between strangers on the street.

> the one unlucky guy who represents the 'final straw' to that girl then gets kicked out.

I wonder. The implication is that the guy said something which in isolation would have been completely within the bounds of good taste and then got kicked out. I bet this never, ever happens.

> But in general I think pretty much everything I said here can be succinctly shortened to "Be merry, have fun and if you feel there's a problem - talk about it - just don't do it behind someone's back."

That seems well-intentioned but entirely utopian to me.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#489

Post by vacri »

Ygg2 wrote: post #182
vacri wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repression is also bad. Moderation is key.

I never said repression is bad, but this isn't a singular time he was verbally abusive.

Not particularly suprising, since he's spent over twenty years in constant communication with people, something that very few other technocrats can boast.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#490

Post by Goladus »

protomyth wrote: post #311
Goladus wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Yes. The discussion shouldn't even be taking place. It is a waste of time. That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. Most project managers do not behave like Linus. There's a whole world full of people who "act profe…

> That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. How quickly people forget the Polio vaccine. I don't think Linux qualifies in the top 10, and hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation.

> hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation.

Is that so? The issue is manners on a mailing list. Qualifying Linux as a top-10, top-100, or top-1000 accomplishment or whatever definitely seems like quibbling when we're comparing it to a complaint that won't even be a historical footnote.

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