Linus on "acting professionally" • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#441

Post by nicolethenerd » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

The fact that so many people have popped up here to defend or justify Linus's behavior terrifies me.

There is no excuse for being mean. Period. Full stop. This is basic human courtesy - they teach it in grade school.

It doesn't matter if you're famous, or if you lead a project with tons of users and contributors, or you're nobody - anything that you can yell at people, you can also tell them politely. And you can argue about the technicalities of what constitutes "professionalism" or "abusive speech" all you want - the fact is, what Linus said was mean, and nobody should have to be on the receiving end of that. It doesn't matter if it's said in public or private, or whether the person he was talking to did something "stupid" (and haven't we all, at some point?) - nobody should have to be treated that way.

And if you think otherwise, well, I hope I never have to work with you.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#442

Post by acjohnson55 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

grannyg00se wrote: post #398

acjohnson55 wrote: post #343

Show some intellectual curiosity, people. The same way some hackers get mad at others' unwillingness to dig into math/tech, many of you are refusing to put just a little bit of effort into being civil. It can be difficult to separate what's actually factually making you upset from the basal urge to express raw ire by cursing and belittling, but it becomes easier with practice. Just like math, or any other intelligenc…

"There is a higher level of humanity to aspire to than yelling at one another like cavemen OR Machiavellian passive-aggressive faux-politeness." Faux-politeness is exactly what Linus is criticising here and he definitely doesn't engage in it. And there is no evidence of him yelling like a caveman at this person. Are you referring to some other example? I'd like to see that. The only time I've seen him yelling and ful…

I'm referring to faux-politeness as Linus's strawman alternative to being rude. It's a false dichotomy.

And when I talk about behaving like a caveman, I should be clear that I'm generalizing the behavior he's trying to legitimize. I don't claim to have an in depth knowledge of his behavior outside of the handful of times things he's written have popped up here or on Slashdot.

For all I know, these are isolated incidents. But even if that's the case, I think it's behavior he should be working on improving, instead of rationalizing. Whether it's coming from him, Steve Jobs, the former Rutgers basketball coach, or whoever else, I simply don't believe that being rude or bullying is optimal or morally acceptable. And I'm not some softie hippie who thinks we should all argue with kid gloves. It's quite possible to be severe and explicit with your thoughts, without being insulting, either to the person or their work.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#443

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #440

olalonde wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy. There's a happy middle ground between being rude and playing insipid office politics. It's called politeness and doesn't have to make communications less effective or less honest.

its not a false dichotomy. sometimes tone IS content. if a person did something that you consider to be such a bad error that you wish them to hear your deep concern/annoyance then it is correct to be "rude", or rather to use harsh language and avoid sugar coating. Linus exemplifies this style of communication.

> rather to use harsh language and avoid sugar coating.

It is tedious when people keep saying that "avoiding sugar coating" means "be rude".

It is fine to avoid sugar coating something. It's not fine to be rude.

> such a bad error that you wish them to hear your deep concern/annoyance

There are many ways to express deep concern or annoyance without being rude, and without sugar coating something.

"It is very frustrating to me that I have to check so much of your work. Please take extra-special care next time you commit something. Here are the errors you've made so far. This has involved a lot of extra work, and has distracted me from doing other work. This is not the first time you've made these simple mistakes. We appreciate your effort, but it might be better if you worked on $OTHER_THING rather than $THIS_THING until you understand our requirements."

That is professional, harsh, true, constructive, and gets stuff done. It's not sugar coated. It's also not rude.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#444

Post by brazzy » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

lnanek2 wrote: post #347

theorique wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus gets away with it because he's Linus and people are willing to swim through a river of shit to work closely with him. Conversely, an average OSS developer will drive people away with this attitude unless the benefit of working with him is so attractive that it outweighs the pain of abuse (in which case he's probably not 'average' at all). Assholes who really deliver get a pass from (some of) the world. Doesn't…

If you have a popular project, though, or even if you have a crappy project but spend most of your time on work and don't have much time for it - it can be very valuable to drive off people who commit worthless wastes of time like stuff that doesn't compile or pass tests. If I only have time to do one commit or code review per night on my personal project, then I those people are a burden. At Linus' level, his person…

Absolutely wrong. You don't get to choose the skill level of people you drive away by being an asshole and having people let you get away with it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#445

Post by riggins » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #433

riggins wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we'll have to agree to disagree. The fundamental claim that I simply don't accept is that people can't handle words. I disagree. People have the capacity to handle anything that is said to them. Psychological abuse is just as real to the brain as physical abuse is to the skin and muscle beneath. a. I'm skeptical of this claim. Would like to see your source b. Only to the extent you allow it. That's one of the definin…

This response lacks empathy and imagination. Imagine being a child that for as long as he can remember has been told by his mother that he's worthless and that she should have had an abortion. You think that's 'not real' and that it only hurts 'to the extent he allows it'? Not everyone has grown up in the enviable position of being strong-willed and independent of thought, especially considering societal expectations…

You're confusing me having a high opinion of what humans are capable of with not having empathy. Two different things.

My opinion is that humans are capable of incredible self control if they choose to exercise it. The more they're taught that lesson and learn their own strength and capabilities, the better.

Of course I'm empathetic with the kid you described. I'm saying he can rise above it though. You're saying he can't. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#446

Post by marknow » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #356

jhspaybar wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I cannot tell you how many times I've wanted to say something similar in a code review but instead go with "hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" Part of me does think its rude, the other part is jealous he can say it and I can't :)

"Hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" is ambiguous and doesn't help you. "Hey! This is broken. It doesn't do X, Y, or Z. Please make sure to check code thoroughly (refer to $DOCUMENT) before committing." is direct, tells people what's wrong, and isn't hostile. People will be offended by it, but those people can be made to understand that they are being given useful direct advic…

Agree. I *hate it when I receive ambiguous criticism, which just means that we'll need to dance around each other while I try to figure out exactly what "looks a little funny".

Getting specific details - instructions or guidance even - is far better to solving the problem efficiently.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#447

Post by xradionut » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:38 PM UTC

mpyne wrote: post #432

xradionut wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should enlist in the military and see how well that works. :)

Well, that's just it. Equanimity in the face of psychological pressure is a valuable skill to have. But it is a skill, it's not free, and the military spends a lot of effort on weeding people out who cannot develop that skill by the end of basic, intermediate, and advanced training schools. And for those of us on the outside, we wouldn't tell a random developer that he should crank out 40 push-ups to prove his worth,…

I'd rather have people express how they feel directly instead of "professionally" backstab or marginalize me.

And the military doesn't breed "aggressiveness" outside of specific services and roles that require it. It does demand an inordinate "attention to detail" due to the fact lives are on the line, whether that be on ships, planes or just normal activities.

This "attention to detail" is also seen among other professions, but seldom in software outside of NASA/avionics/medical/etc...

Linus has laid out guidelines and expectations which while demanding, can be followed. If you can't test your code nor follow a checklist, then maybe you shouldn't submit patches to him. It's the military equivalent of passing barracks/quarters inspections, it should be elementary for professionals.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#448

Post by dgesang » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:48 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #434

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

My guess: if Linus would behave in a nicer, politer way, the Linux kernel would be much more awesome than it already is. Through his behavior and that of the people he has attracted (those that will deal with his shit and have a higher incidence of behaving in the same way), hundreds of would-be contributors have been annoyed, alienated and scared away. If you questioned every developer on this planet, for every kern…

Do you have any numbers of how many would-be contributers have been scared aways by him? How many, on the other hand, have been attracted by his person? And what about the 1-to-2 ratio, any proof for that? And how would all of this make the Linux kernel better? How is being nice and polite related to the quality of your code?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#449

Post by dgesang » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

gregd wrote: post #313

phryk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

We have a rule in my house. The only bad words are words used to hurt other people. Fuck and shit aren't included in that group...

What about "Fuck you, you piece of shit!" ;)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#450

Post by 6d0debc071 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 7:02 PM UTC

volume wrote: post #400

6d0debc071 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. There are some extremely dedicated people who are prepared to put up with his tantrums to work on the kernel. I'm not sure that's the same thing as knowing how to run an effective team. He's at t…

To be honest, I don't keep up with the internal politics or interactions between Linus and his crew. What are examples of Linus not interacting "in a meaningful way with most of the people in it"?

It's just not possible, there are thousands of people who contribute to the Linux kernel. I believe I saw a chart a while back that showed two or three levels of hierarchy between Linus and contributors. Realistically, you run a small team of people who run other small teams of people who....

And because of that, it's entirely possible to be at the head of an organisation made up, primarily, of far better people than yourself.

Heck, it's highly probable that's going to happen if you fall far beneath the average in social skills and have significant leverage along some other axis. Nice people will generally refuse to work with an arsehole - but every now and then someone will, (maybe because they have thicker skin than the average, or value your leverage more, or come in for less of your flak.) So, the people who are nice and will, for whatever reason, put up with you tend to end up filling those positions because no-one else can do so effectively. If they're nasty, then no-one will be more likely to work with them than they are to work with you and the problem recurs one level down - except this time you need to find people'll who'll work with five (or whatever the size of your immediate project team is) arseholes rather than one to make the project work.

This all, of course, depends on the alternatives that the people at the base of the hierarchy have. In situations where the people can't go elsewhere it often seems to be very much a case of, 'You'll take it and like it, if you know what's good for you.'

Does any of this mean Linus is bad at running teams? No. But it does mean that he's not necessarily any good at it just because the system's giving reasonable output. The naive model of a hierarchy as something in which all the influence flows from the top down is nonsense.