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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#331

Post by galactus »

claudius wrote: post #283
jakobe wrote: post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

You make it sound as if it was a perfectly normal tone to use... Do you talk like that to, say, your parents?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#332

Post by jhspaybar »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

Wow, I cannot tell you how many times I've wanted to say something similar in a code review but instead go with "hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" Part of me does think its rude, the other part is jealous he can say it and I can't :)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#333

Post by e40 »

pmelendez wrote: post #316
DigitalJack wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main difference is everybody is remote. I don't doubt Linus would be less brutal in person.

> "I don't doubt Linus would be less brutal in person." My personal rule of thumb is do not say something written that I wouldn't say in person, especially if I am using a profanity language.

That may be your rule, but it is definitely not the norm. I've known countless people, including the infamous Erik Naggum, that are far more abrasive via email than they are in person. Erik was, in person, a sweet and thoughtful person that would never attack someone. On email or usenet, he was on the order of Linus at attacking people.

So, while it's your good rule of thumb, my observation over the years is it is not followed by many.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#334

Post by snowwrestler »

riggins wrote: post #327
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words.

The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%.

Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk.

One of the key insights of working together constructively with other people is that I don't get to decide how other people think. If I want them to do something, I have to get them to see why they should do it, from their own perspective. Abusing them, and then telling them to get over it, usually does not work well.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#335

Post by Ygg2 »

vacri wrote: post #321
Ygg2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again acting professionally, isn't their job, they are commenting on thread on Slashdot, not on a Github issue or LK mailing list, which is his implied business (as in things that keeps him busy around the day and that he strives to prefect professionally). It's true we might miss some of the context by not being there, that said, from his previous discussions you can draw a lot of observation that help clarify the c…

One of the links isn't about professionalism, it's about politeness, and the author is not being polite in return. The 'jobness' of the comment is irrelevant. The other comment spends the first half in character assassination and really gives us no particular reason to consider that author particularly versed in how to behave professionally. The thing is, if you stop and actually read how Torvalds presents himself, i…

I've read his argument concerning Minix, and I'm pretty sure that entire thread wasn't out of context. It was just him being a douchebag i.e. an annoying, abrasive person.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#336

Post by qwerta »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #147

I only have one Linus story. Way back in 2007, he was supposed to come and give a talk on git. I had to do an on-site interview with a candidate immediately beforehand, but managed to get it done and got there in time to see the talk start. I had never seen him in person and figured it might be interesting, particularly since I had actually used git on some projects prior to that point. This wound up being recorded,…

You would see it differently, if you would know CVS :-)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#337

Post by mpyne »

riggins wrote: post #327
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

Words are just words. They merely convey the message.

But the message itself can be harmful. Psychological abuse is just as real to the brain as physical abuse is to the skin and muscle beneath.

If messages meant nothing then there would be no reason to talk about hate speech, sexually abusive speech, or the many, many other harmful messages people can and do convey to others.

It's not my job to build an impenetrable moat around my psyche just to survive other people being abusive.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#338

Post by [deleted] »

corresation wrote: post #224
DanBC wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent t…

[deleted]

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#339

Post by Karunamon »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #310
claudius wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelevant

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#340

Post by qwerta »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #285

Aren't they talking past each other? Sarah says: quit being sexist, racist, and stuff. Linus says: I'm a shouty dude and that's fine. To which I say: surely these are non-overlapping concerns?

My impression is that Linus shouts at everyone. Where the sexist comes from?
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