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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#411

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

>>He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years.

Seriously?

He did not invent Unix, more like wrote a famous flavor of it.

Someone like Dennis Ritchie would get the credit for that not Linus.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think managing an open-source project is so different than running a company. > Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin He's also the original author. And he still is an awesome developer and the Linux kernel is not his only accomplishment. Git is another one. Linus is one of those people that can change the face of our industry over night and he has done so at least twice. Not only that, but if…

On what basis do you decide to contribute to one open-source project over another? On what basis do you decide to work for one business over another? Are your answers to those two questions the same? No? Then there's the difference. > Also, you're wrong, because Linus's job and greatest skill is in managing people. He doesn't manage people. He manages their contributions. Why are they contributing? Because they want…

From my experience, managing volunteers is MUCH harder then managing employees. If Linus did what he did, he for sure is able to manage volunteers - which doesn't mean his way is the only way, or even the best way. But for sure it's a way that works.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#413
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The curse-density in that post is obviously a good deal above my average. :) People communicate in different ways (and with different "curse-densities") and that is completely fine. What isn't fine is trying to get everyone to conform to a certain way of communication that you personally think is agreeable. Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not wi…

> Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges. If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question.

If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question.

And a good one, too. The honest answer is: I don't know. I think this is highly contextual. At least I can't make a generalized decision for that. If the "less diversity" bit for instance means incorporating a 'No Nazis'-rule then the choice might be clear while in other cases it might be much more nuanced. As a rule of thumb I am against limiting someone's freedom until there is no other way around it. I would for instance only vote for a 'No Nazis'-rule if there would be a real problem with Nazis without that particular rule.

If, however, we are still talking about the case of censoring out profanity, you know my opinion. The people who are filtered out (or constitute the "less diversity") are the sort of people who get offended by me making use of a basic freedom (the one of speech). I am not interested in meeting people like that - frankly I hope they stay as far away from me as fucking possible.

This is similar to the reason of why I am against anti-discrimination rules at hacker cons; They are liable to be abused at some point while not providing anything of worth.

The sort of abuse they are supposed to prevent are reason enough to throw someone out even without those rules. Any major abuse is reason enough to get thrown out of a hacker event, or really any event.

The argument I have heard a few times for anti-discrimination rules is that girls get hit on all the time. I was kind of flabbergasted when I first heard this. I mean I can understand that it gets on ones nerves, but kicking someone out of an event because they hit on somebody really is not the right thing to do. If you don't want to get hit on there's a plethora of ways to communicate that in a non-verbal fashion, like wearing a wedding ring or - less subtle - wearing a shirt that says "I don't want to get hit on" or something, you get the idea…

I can use profanity in a peaceful manner to set emphasis and if someone feels attacked, denounced or otherwise mistreated they can just talk to me. Seriously, I don't bite and if I see your point I will act accordingly. Even if you are offended by someones actions that doesn't mean that they are unyielding dogmatic assholes - Just give them the benefit of the doubt and try to reason with them. And if it works you might've just broadened your personal horizon, maybe even made a new friend.

You'd think a community consisting of some of the most intelligent people on this planet would manage to have a proper communication culture, but in many aspects we are clearly lacking. I hope for this to change and of course discussions like this are a great first step towards doing so.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#414
post #176
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

profanity as a language tool is meant to accentuate things (like an exclamation mark). If you overuse it, it becomes useless. Swearing all the time is not equivalent to talking like an adult, despite what you might think.

>> profanity as a language tool is meant to accentuate things (like an exclamation mark). If you overuse it, it becomes useless.

I generally associate overuse of profanity with laziness in word selection, but that's just me.

I agree with you on overuse. The only times where profanity has any impact on me is when someone who doesn't normally use profanity uses it for emphasis.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#415

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

Talent of a certain caliber invites imitators. I will not be surprised if people reading through Linus's email think that it is ok to behave abrasively if you get work done. or even worse, that you need to be this way to achieve greatness. The choice between politeness and honesty is a false choice. If you care, you can have both.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

Having been on lkml before, I can tell you, nearly everyone does it. And, yes, that includes Sarah Sharp:

Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 00:04:50 -0700 From: Greg KH To: Sarah Sharp Cc: linux-usb@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [RFC 0/3] xhci: Remove useless debugging

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 04:28:51PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: The xHCI driver is what, two years old now? It's high time it put on its big girl pants and stop crapping out useless debugging information.

    You now owe me a wet-wipe to clean my laptop up from the coffee I just
    snorted out my nose all over it.
From: https://www.linux.com/news/special-feature/linux-developers/...

The wind was probably blowing South East instead of North West or something on the day Sarah decided everyone needed to be more "professional".

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words. The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk. One of the key insights of working togeth…

The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. All people definitely can do this. They just choose not to. I won't say that I always do, but I try to keep it mind. Its a lesson I really try to internalize. Try this thought experiment. Let's say I show up at your office with a duffel bag filled with $1M cash ... and I said to you, snowwrestler 'I'm now going to make a bunch of nasty…

I know I wouldn't so it's not 100% or at least not at least 100% of people.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#418
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a happy medium :) But in general, I'd always choose (true, sincerely meant) pleasantness and kindness over intelligence. Though, if a kernel developer is required, then maybe intelligence is the more useful, giving rise to this current situation...

and that happy medium varies from person to person you dense jackass, that was the entire fucking point of the rant

The hurt caused by such aggression varies too. Should this not be taken into account, or should we never consider the affects our behaviour has on others? Some people are more sensitive. Some people think calling someone a "dense jackass" as a reproach is OK.

Fortunately for me, I'm in a position to choose exactly who I work with. (Unlike perhaps this Sarah is.)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words. The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk. One of the key insights of working togeth…

You should enlist in the military and see how well that works. :)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#420
"Profanity is the language common to all programmers".

This entire thing is the clash of two cultures: corporatism (and its drive to mediocrity/milquetoasts) vs "getting sh*t done right"-ism.

It all comes down to this: do you value political sensitivity, or calling a spade a spade (granted, profanity isn't required for this, but it certainly helps)?

Give me the latter any day. I'm an adult; I can handle it.

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