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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#351

Post by VikingCoder »

flagnog wrote: post #308
VikingCoder wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a huge problem with what you're saying - you are nowhere establishing what would be going TOO FAR, or how people should react, if they believe he has gone too far. For a completely imperfect analogy, it's okay that [project leader X] makes some sexual jokes every now and then. But if he sexually assaulted someone, that would be too far. Is it possible, in your mind, for Linus to go TOO FAR in one of his rants,…

And that's the beauty of the GPL - if you whiny fucks don't like it, fork it.

Before that point, it should theoretically be possible to have an intervention for Linus.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#352

Post by gdulli »

gregd wrote: post #322
jakobe wrote: post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

I tend to try to live by The Four Agreements: Be Impeccable With Your Words Don't Take Anything Personally Don't Make Assumptions Always Do Your Best This is from an excellent book called, "The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom" by Don Ruiz. We could all do with a lot more of number two, don't take anything personally.

"We could all do with a lot more of number two, don't take anything personally."

This is really a Postel's Law situation. Yes, your life will be improved if you can receive bad behavior and not take it personally. But it would be a shitty world to live in if this burden was only on recipients. The only robust way to maintain a worthwhile society is to expect, in the general case, that adults will have control of their impulses. Enabling this kind of behavior from celebrities is a loophole we might try harder to close, but fortunately, most of us don't have to deal with celebrities.

I can't control what kinds of behavior that others will tolerate, and I won't lose sleep over the existence of name-calling among adults in the world, but there's no way I'd keep a job where I was treated that way, let alone continue to volunteer my time in that situation.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#353

Post by joanofarf »

bad_user wrote: post #255
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I do not think managing an open-source project is so different than running a company. > Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin He's also the original author. And he still is an awesome developer and the Linux kernel is not his only accomplishment. Git is another one. Linus is one of those people that can change the face of our industry over night and he has done so at least twice. Not only that, but if…

On what basis do you decide to contribute to one open-source project over another? On what basis do you decide to work for one business over another? Are your answers to those two questions the same? No? Then there's the difference.

>Also, you're wrong, because Linus's job and greatest skill is in managing people.

He doesn't manage people. He manages their contributions. Why are they contributing? Because they want to make it better.

In general, businesses don't have volunteer employees who work there solely on the basis of wanting to make the product better. Their decision to work there is also based factors like the salary, the benefits, the culture, whether they like the people they work with/for, etc., some or all of which will vary from person to person.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#355

Post by smewpy »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

That style has merit. Whomever submitted that code, which obviously resulted in creating extra work to waste Linus' time, that person has many choices, such as leaving and never contributing again, or improving their code before next submit which might actually help the project. If they choose to tough it out improve their code in future submissions, then they will likely also have improved themselves in a lot of ways. Otherwise, they can just go away, and at least in this popular project, there is a chance they will be replaced by a much better talent.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#356

Post by DanBC »

jhspaybar wrote: post #332
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

Wow, I cannot tell you how many times I've wanted to say something similar in a code review but instead go with "hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" Part of me does think its rude, the other part is jealous he can say it and I can't :)

"Hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" is ambiguous and doesn't help you.

"Hey! This is broken. It doesn't do X, Y, or Z. Please make sure to check code thoroughly (refer to $DOCUMENT) before committing." is direct, tells people what's wrong, and isn't hostile. People will be offended by it, but those people can be made to understand that they are being given useful direct advice.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#357

Post by JulianMorrison »

qwerta wrote: post #340
JulianMorrison wrote: post #285

Aren't they talking past each other? Sarah says: quit being sexist, racist, and stuff. Linus says: I'm a shouty dude and that's fine. To which I say: surely these are non-overlapping concerns?

My impression is that Linus shouts at everyone. Where the sexist comes from?

Implied by "this is not just about me, or other minorities".

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#358

Post by abdel »

flumbaps wrote: post #145
ericd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting the person probably serves as a filter - at that point that person either shapes up or stops committing, either of which is a better outcome for Linus than that person continuing to commit crap code for Linus to have to look at/approve. Your more reasonable comment doesn't have the same effect, so it's not the strictly better solution, depending on what Linus values.

Why not just ask them not to commit?

are you serious? It's a free software dude.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#359

Post by abdel »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #278
syncerr wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Sorry, we’re not going to take this code... " Why are you apologizing?

Perhaps because the person spent their time working on something for no compensation? Just an expression of a little empathy for that person's wasted time? Is the cost of that word really so much?

> no compensation? It's more than a compensation that your commit gets accepted. It's a privilege.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#360

Post by kraemate »

As always, Linus is right. 99% commenters here probably work for businesses which are surviving only because of the Free and amazing kernel which he has managed to build.

Linus has explained his directness and lack of sugar coating several times. Sugar coating something, he believes, dilutes the importance of the message AND confuses his subordinates. "We can try avoiding X" is more ambiguous than "X is crap, you dumb morons". The latter statement is absolutely clear where Linus stands. Which is what communication is all about?

Plus, i reckon it is different in a "Proper Business" where employees are paid to do work directly under a manager. To avoid connotations of servitude and slavery, modern businesses decided that managers should be polite so that their subordinates feel that they aren't slaves. With Linux, no one is forcing you to commit "bullshit" patches.

RANT: I reckon a deeper problem is that a lot of kernel developers are now paid to work on it (as observed in this thread). So i reckon that in this case, the developer expects the same kind of feel-goody emails as her corporate manager keeps sending her.

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