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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#401

Post by tjr »

pivnicek wrote: post #314
Vornir wrote: post #127

I know now what I could tell to a young nerd who's been bullied: Don't worry, later you'll be able to do the same I guess it's a great example for young peoples that you can get away with any despicable behaviors as long as you have done something worthwhile in your life. People are then able to rationalize that by saying it was "warranted" or "thought provoking" or any garbage they can find to justify it, because so…

No, it's not ridiculous. If building a bridge were the context, and someone built a piece that would collapse the bridge, I'd fully expect any foreman to say "What the fuck is that?" "That is shit". And I'd fully expect any worker to say "Yeah, damn, you're right, that was stupid. Cheers, I'll fix that" People didn't start building stuff in the digital era., It's the same principles. I hope to hell all crap gets call…

My grandfather supervised the construction of bridges. I cannot imagine him using such words, though he also would not have knowingly allowed faulty workmanship to be done.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#402

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

nknighthb wrote: post #292
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research shows that you're not typical - most people find it massively demotivating. There seems to be a thing here with a lot of people saying "I work like this and like it". That's fine but the worst mistake you can make with others is often assuming that everyone else is like you. a lot of management science is bullshit but alongside the nonsense there is actual quantitative research about how people behave and so…

> Research shows that you're not typical - most people find it massively demotivating What is "it", exactly? Any public criticism? Public belittling (which is severely different from a proper dressing down)? Swearing? There's a lot mixed in here. And does research conclusively establish a significantly different reaction to otherwise identical acts in public vs private? > I'd rather go with programmers behave broadly…

"It" was referring to being publicly berated from your reply. Berating is angry criticism so I think it's fairly specific.

Ultimately it depends on what you're trying to achieve when you're talking to someone. There might be occasions when being shamed in front of the team is the best thing for the person but I'd suggest that they're few and far between.

As a manager if I act angrily towards you then regardless of what you've done I'd suggest that I've both failed - yes you might have done something which has annoyed me but I've then responded by handling it badly. The best I can say at the end is that I didn't start it. The twice I've lost my temper publicly at a member of my team my overriding sense afterwards was that I should have handled the situation better. Certainly in neither case do I think what I did got the best from the person in question (one I think viewed the whole thing with complete indifference, the other was demotivated by it).

In terms of the specifics of the research, it's been a while since I looked at it (back in my days studying). I recall that public was generally a greater demotivator than private but I'm not aware of anything that's been done on different skill levels - would certainly be interested in that. My gut feel is that while there might be differences constructive engagement in private would still be the most productive way of handling it - I don't think programmers and other skilled workers are that different to the rest of the world. If anything I'd suggest they'd be more inclined to dislike anything involving anger directed at them - after all, they generally have the option to go elsewhere so why should they put up with it?

The comments you make about everything being out in the open are interesting. I can see if the manager or other berater is untrustworthy that this could be a thing, but if there are overall issues of trust of that type I think that how this sort of thing is handled is largely irrelevant in the face of that much larger problem.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#403

Post by dobbsbob »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

Just be who you are. If you are a no BS direct person then be that way. Conformity isn't a hacker trait. Guys like Theo and Linus would definitely be like this to your face too remember just because a few people here are scared of IRL confrontation doesnt mean everybody else is. Mathmaticians like Grigori Perelman are the exact same way in person as they are when writing and calling out other peers to their faces.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#404

Post by olalonde »

claudius wrote: post #283
jakobe wrote: post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

There's a theory in neuroscience which says that decisions are made unconsciously and only rationalized afterward.

The fact that you managed to describe "SHUT THE FUCK UP" as a slightly less polite version of "No." leads me to believe that this theory is quite plausible.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#405

Post by claudius »

galactus wrote: post #331
claudius wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

You make it sound as if it was a perfectly normal tone to use... Do you talk like that to, say, your parents?

I usually don’t swear, but rather ignore people quickly and/or make my disregard for them or what they say very clear in a ‘civilised’ tone; furthermore I tend to avoid getting emotional.

That, of course, doesn’t mean I want others not to swear, not everyone has to behave exactly like me for me to be happy :)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#406

Post by sergiosgc »

doctorfoo wrote: post #236
sergiosgc wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pleasant ≠ profanity free. I identify fully with Linus' stance of profanity bursts followed by no-grudges held. A common professional profanity free, revenge backstabbing, work environment is much much more unpleasant.

I agree with your first statement totally, the difference is I would rate Linus' attitude, separate from his language, as unpleasant and unnecessarily aggressive. I don't like aggression in the workplace (or anywhere.) And I think that links into a comment above regarding women; in general women are less aggressive and so feel less at home in this industry. In general, in my opinion, etc, etc.

I don't buy into the view that women are less aggressive. IMO, they display a different kind of aggressiveness, somewhat less frontal but just as damaging.

This may be a guy thing, and a clash in behaviour of the sexes. Guys are more prone to bursts of aggressiveness, gals more adept of moderate long term aggressive stances. Which one is more difficult to handle is largely a matter of opinion. Quick bursts are automatically solved immediately, leaving bruised egos, long term allows more time to manage the underlying reason. Just because Linus' stance is flashy does not make it wrong.

Unless you posit that aggression is never warranted. Then, we'll have to disagree. Aggression is a normal behaviour, artificial suppression leads to non healthy alternatives; it's better to lay problems out in the open and fix them than to sweep them under the politically correct rug.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#407

Post by mwfunk »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

This is right on. Just because he's a guy that gets a lot of challenging stuff done and can also be a jerk doesn't mean that being a jerk is somehow essential to getting a lot of challenging stuff done. Correlation isn't causation, etc. He's a jerk because he can get away with it, plain and simple. I sort of understand the people who are amused by his jerkiness, but at the same time I frequently get the vibe that many of those people wish they could be jerks too in their day to day life, so they're living vicariously through him. I can slip up and be a jerk too sometimes but it's not something I aspire to, and I don't know why anyone else would. That's only a form of leadership if the people you are leading are idiots and/or jerks themselves.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#408

Post by qwerta »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #399
qwerta wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically she implies he is a racist? Is not this even worse abuse than initial Linus rant?

1. I didn't find/read Sarah's up thread message. But the snippet implies somebody is (pick one of) sexist/racist/etc. Not necessarily Linus. 2. Accusing someone of sexism, racism, etc, is not "abuse". It is never an insult. If you get accused of it, consider being less sexist/racist/etc rather than taking offense.

I read the email thread. Sarah asks to be polite on mailing list, because there is no feedback, and author can not know how it was taken. Latter she talks about karate and beating opponent when he is down.

There is really nothing about sexism/racism in there.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#409

Post by mwfunk »

makomk wrote: post #320
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

Actually, I reckon he's being fairly unreasonable, he's just couching it in superficially-reasonable terms. He's arguing that "playing the victim card" is a way of enforcing your expectations upon others, but accusing someone of "playing the victim card" is itself an incredibly nasty way of imposing your own expectations on others. It's essentially saying that not only should Sarah Sharp be willing to put up with all…

Totally agreed, accusing someone of "playing the victim card" is a super lame oratorical trick, frequently used by people who don't realize that that's what they're doing. It's up there with saying, "now, I know it may not be politically correct to say this...", which is pretty much 100% of the time followed by some completely idiotic statement. The trick is that it sets up an environment where objecting to the idiotic statement is preemptively made to sound like some sort of hypersensitive political correctness.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#410

Post by slantyyz »

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

I think it's fair to say that Linus can be unprofessional. Just because you've got great accomplishments doesn't mean you're professional. But what people forget is that Linus is essentially a rock star in his field.

Because he's a rock star who continuously proves it with results, Linus can say and do whatever he wants. He's earned it, and most people will not only tolerate his abrasiveness, but they'll accept it.

Many people who might be very good at what they do but are not rock stars think they can act like Linus, Crockford, DHH or [insert grumpy tech icon here]. Personally, I think that's a mistake, because "pretend rock stars" just end up being regarded as overrated tools.

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