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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#361

Post by justin66 »

phryk wrote: post #187
rtpg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

profanity as a language tool is meant to accentuate things (like an exclamation mark). If you overuse it, it becomes useless. Swearing all the time is not equivalent to talking like an adult, despite what you might think.

I agree. The curse-density in that post is obviously a good deal above my average. :) People communicate in different ways (and with different "curse-densities") and that is completely fine. What isn't fine is trying to get everyone to conform to a certain way of communication that you personally think is agreeable. Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not wi…

> Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges.

If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#362

Post by whiddershins »

What matters is that Linus isn't attacking someone for WHO THEY ARE (identity). He is attacking them for WHAT THEY DID (actions). I think this is the gold standard for whether behavior is abusive.

Other than that,

This concept of "professional standards" of behavior is completely parochial. Try going to a constuction site. Or bootcamp. Or working on a pig farm. Standards of behavior vary dramatically between organizations, industries, and cultures.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#363

Post by gregd »

gdulli wrote: post #352
gregd wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to try to live by The Four Agreements: Be Impeccable With Your Words Don't Take Anything Personally Don't Make Assumptions Always Do Your Best This is from an excellent book called, "The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom" by Don Ruiz. We could all do with a lot more of number two, don't take anything personally.

"We could all do with a lot more of number two, don't take anything personally." This is really a Postel's Law situation. Yes, your life will be improved if you can receive bad behavior and not take it personally. But it would be a shitty world to live in if this burden was only on recipients. The only robust way to maintain a worthwhile society is to expect, in the general case, that adults will have control of thei…

Well I agree with you based on the 2nd agreement only. But really what I should have said was we could see a LOT more use of the FOUR agreements out of everyone.

Being impeccable with your word takes the "burden" off of the recipient, which of course is the first agreement.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#364

Post by TDL »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #325
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

The real reason that everyone should embrace/appreciate Linus' abrasiveness is this. Imagine what Linus' job as kernel boss would be like if people thought it was okay to submit crap-quality/untested patches to him (hint, it would be impossible). Imagine how long it would take for Linux kernel quality to dive off a cliff if quality were dependent wholly upon Linus' capacity to review and fix mistakes. Linus catching…

Being polite is not the same as being a push-over.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#365

Post by HNJohnC »

I think this is largely generational. People over 30 are not surprised at all to run into abrasive, hard nosed people at work, people under 30 in many cases have a very hard time with any amount of criticism or negativity and consider even tiny amounts "bullying".

It's become a well known issue in professional sports with coaching where old time successful coaches have had to completely change their style to deal with the latest generation of athletes who do not respond well at all to the traditional dictatorship that coaches used to run.

Now a lot of hand holding is reportedly required. I'm not judging but struggle to think of anything great that was ever built by a committee.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#366

Post by dominotw »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

So basically you can be a dick as long as you can get away with it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#367

Post by jasonwocky »

theorique wrote: post #250
DanBC wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

Linus gets away with it because he's Linus and people are willing to swim through a river of shit to work closely with him. Conversely, an average OSS developer will drive people away with this attitude unless the benefit of working with him is so attractive that it outweighs the pain of abuse (in which case he's probably not 'average' at all). Assholes who really deliver get a pass from (some of) the world. Doesn't…

Linus wasn't always "Linus". It'd be interesting to graph his profanity / other communication metrics over time.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#368

Post by justin66 »

metaphorm wrote: post #281
jakobe wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not mean to call Torvalds names. Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I meant to express my frustration how the community often accepts socially inacceptable behaviour from accomplished people. When "normal" people fall into a rage, we tell them to learn coping with their anger. If they keep yelling angrily at people, we might even suggest they see a psychiatrist. Not as an insult, but because we s…

you just don't get it. you're still stuck on the notion of "socially inacceptable behaviour". the whole point here is that the standard by which you judge "socially acceptable" is broken and detrimental to the community. Linus behavior is socially acceptable. He is honest, passionate, says what he means, and most importantly, he is forgiving and doesn't hold grudges. The type of behavior that Linus is railing against…

> this encourages duplicity, causes people to become disengaged from the work and obsessed with their political relationship to their coworkers, and it breeds long lasting unacknowledged and unforgiven grudges.

Does anyone familiar with it think the Linux kernel development community has successfully avoided all that? Not Linus himself, but the community he leads and whose norms he helps set?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#370

Post by Monotoko »

jwilliams wrote: post #197
phryk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

The OP was just commenting that they didn't find abuse and profanity productive. They didn't mention censoring anyone. They said it didn't work for them. Do you have one single way of expressing yourself? Do you use profanity 100% of the time? Do you automatically reject all feedback on how you express yourself? ... On how you write code? ... Or how you interact with your colleagues? Because, from your comment, that'…

My coding comments often include the words "Fuck", "Shit" and "Cunt" when things are not going my way.
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