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Linus on "acting professionally"

marc.info

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#281
post #151
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of "he's not being polite, why can't be be polite, now I'm going to call him names", in this case, saying that he's mentally disturbed. Why is it that so many people demanding politeness of Torvalds can't live by their own rules? Perhaps what Torvalds is saying is true, that people will find ways around the 'false rules'.

I did not mean to call Torvalds names. Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I meant to express my frustration how the community often accepts socially inacceptable behaviour from accomplished people. When "normal" people fall into a rage, we tell them to learn coping with their anger. If they keep yelling angrily at people, we might even suggest they see a psychiatrist. Not as an insult, but because we s…

you just don't get it. you're still stuck on the notion of "socially inacceptable behaviour". the whole point here is that the standard by which you judge "socially acceptable" is broken and detrimental to the community. Linus behavior is socially acceptable. He is honest, passionate, says what he means, and most importantly, he is forgiving and doesn't hold grudges.

The type of behavior that Linus is railing against here is the politically correct culture of insipid office politics, forced politeness, and concealing the true meaning of communications in order to make the communication a more effective tool of political manipulation.

this encourages duplicity, causes people to become disengaged from the work and obsessed with their political relationship to their coworkers, and it breeds long lasting unacknowledged and unforgiven grudges. its a horror show. but you consider it "socially acceptable" because it matches your standard of politeness for some reason.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#282
RE: Linus

There are/were other people in similar positions who did not act in that way to their peers. If people that thought that treating others with respect, or remaining emotionally neutral toward them was something worth mentioning, HN would be flooded with newsgroup posts and emails. Most of the time we really only talk about Linus because he's an asshole. Usually noone really cares about the technical merits of his arguments. I don't really think it belongs on TBH.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#283
post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it:

> Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been ‘No.’, but I don’t see any bullying/abuse.

> It's a bug alright - in the kernel. How long have you been a maintainer? And you still haven't learnt the first rule of kernel maintenance?

It appears that this guy violated some rather important rule of kernel development which he should have known given his experience. Again, no name-calling or directed swearing whatsoever, however. Again, a more polite version could be ‘We don’t break userspace, and you know that.’, which doesn’t look particularly different to me.

> If a change results in user programs breaking, it's a bug in the kernel. We never EVER blame the user programs. How hard can this be to understand?

I would wager the guess that similar problems pop up from time to time and Linus is getting tired of seeing them all the time, hence his question. Again, no name-calling at all, also no abuse, but a (justified, though maybe slightly aggressive) question.

> [technical details]

> Shut up, Mauro. And I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious garbage and idiocy from a kernel maintainer again. Seriously.

Again, no name-calling of the maintainer, but only an assessment of what he wrote, which, to Linus, appears very wrong. Again, more politely, this would have been ‘No.’

> […] And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue

This is the first personal ‘attack’, however, it is still only aimed at the competence rather than person, and if the above holds true, is yet again entirely justified. Is this the line with which you had a problem?

Linus then goes on to explain again why this particular idea was ‘TOTAL CRAP’, with some more colourful adjectives regarding the patch. Again, no abuse.

> The fact that you then try to make excuses for breaking user space, and blaming some external program that used to work, is just shameful. It's not how we work.

This could be interpreted as somewhat personal, though it likely only means ‘I expected better and am disappointed in you’.

> Fix your f*cking "compliance tool", because it is obviously broken. And fix your approach to kernel programming.

Note that the ‘fucking’ is for the ‘compliance tool’, which apparently is broken; the comment regarding kernel programming is again directed at their competence rather than person, so I don’t see any particular abuse there, either.

The remaining question is then, why didn’t Linus just write something along the lines of ‘No. / Don’t break userspace. / No. / No.’? Likely because then someone would have called him out on not going into details or because they got the same email regarding three small mistakes and a question and now don’t know whether this issue is a similar ‘small mistake’ or something more problematic.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#284

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I have a huge problem with what you're saying - you are nowhere establishing what would be going TOO FAR, or how people should react, if they believe he has gone too far. For a completely imperfect analogy, it's okay that [project leader X] makes some sexual jokes every now and then. But if he sexually assaulted someone, that would be too far. Is it possible, in your mind, for Linus to go TOO FAR in one of his rants,…

If he wasn't communicating through emails, it probably would have been considered as going too far already. And he probably doesn't rant the same way when talking face-to-face with others, or when dealing with people outside of the tech/Linux community.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#286
post #151
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of "he's not being polite, why can't be be polite, now I'm going to call him names", in this case, saying that he's mentally disturbed. Why is it that so many people demanding politeness of Torvalds can't live by their own rules? Perhaps what Torvalds is saying is true, that people will find ways around the 'false rules'.

I did not mean to call Torvalds names. Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I meant to express my frustration how the community often accepts socially inacceptable behaviour from accomplished people. When "normal" people fall into a rage, we tell them to learn coping with their anger. If they keep yelling angrily at people, we might even suggest they see a psychiatrist. Not as an insult, but because we s…

> I did not mean to call Torvalds names. Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording.

_This_ is the problem. We're all engineers here, right? We appreciate that swearing in such a fashion is a concrete implementation of an abstract concept. The abstract concept of scorn or vehement disagreement. It just so happens your implementation was a little off before:

"Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording"

... but even if you tidy it up, its still the same abstract.

This post more or less proves his entire point. I can wander around in a professional capacity and utterly slaughter people with fancy sounding words because my implementation of scorn is _very_ sly when I'm in enterprise. Yours is IDENTICAL.

> socially inacceptable > fall into a rage > yelling angrily > see a psychiatrist > Not as an insult > learn some coping strategies > get along better with other people

That is all 100% unadulterated scorn. It's incredibly, incredibly personally _offensive_..... but your implementation is sly so it's acceptable in a "professional" environment.

Personally I prefer Linus's implementation as its more straight-forward and its easier to see what he's thinking making it more clear how he feels if one were to work together with him.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#287

There is HUGE difference between 'your code sucks' and 'you suck'. I'd argue the former is more effective at addressing the problem at hand, while hearing the latter from someone you respect can be emotionally devastating for some people.

But when you say "your code sucks" a lot of people hear "you suck", especially when they've put their heart and soul into it.

Still, I think we all know how difficult and time-consuming it can be to deal with people who just "don't get it" and won't listen. If Linus finds that cutting people like that off at the knees is an effective strategy for managing open source projects, who am I to argue with him?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#288

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

Channeling my inner Linus: Who the fuck are you to tell Sarah what she can or cannot say to him?

Or on a more serious note:

Sarah's involvement with the project gives her the right to voice her opinion. If people work together on an open source project and have a disagreement over management styles and professional conduct, this disagreement needs to be addressed instead of ignored.

In addition to the discussion on the mailing list, there will apparently be a meeting in meat-space as well that's going to involve cookies and brownies of questionable origin, so they are dealing with it.

Nothing more to see here, and the internet at large can move along - rallying in support of a the semi-mystical Linus that cannot do wrong is misguided and unnecessary - I'm confident he's able to fight his own fights...

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#289
I swear he must have some copy/paste responses for this by now. It seems like it pops up every couple of months, when someone shows up seemingly completely oblivious to the way Linus has behaved for the past what, two decades? And decides they want to be a part of the kernel team? How does that even happen? I only have a passing familiarity with Linus and his kernel development team and I fully know what I could expect if I decided to become a part of it.

Regardless, why would anyone think they can tell him what is or is not professional? I think once you've created something on the scale of Linux, you get to define that word for yourself. It reminds me of the line from Parks & Recreation: "Everything I do is the behavior of an award winner because I HAVE WON AN AWARD."

Don't screw with the formula folks. Linux is too damn important to screw up, and Linus obviously knows what the hell he's doing.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#290
post #25

Ugh, mailing lists. I wonder why so smart people as Linus doesn't invent something thats slightly more comfortable to use. Maybe they just like to be left alone, without interference from mortals.

What's uncomfortable about email?

I don't think email is a good format for long discussions. Also, the page linked doesn't make it better.
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